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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:39 pm 
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I am working on the WWI 1/350 SMS Seydlitz. Was wondering if this or any contemporary consort had a defined boot topping? Many models of this particular BC show both with and without and models of the SMS Konig appear to be similar. Thanks

Frank R.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:36 am 
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Gary Staff's book shows Seydlitz with no boot top.
The only battlecruisers with one were Derfflinger and Lutzow with narrow black boot tops.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:34 am 
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In Gary Staff's book it looks like a thin boot top with the hull grey continued underneath it and then the lower hull colour under that? I may be misinterpreting the photo as I am new to German WWI.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:40 pm 
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The black or dark grey boot topping that most associate with warships really started when they began to use oil for fuel. There were many instances of waterline markings being used in the age of coal, white, pink, red, etc, but most coal fired ships had no need for a boot. You really have to research the particular ship you are modeling, as their doesn’t seem to be a rule for all ships, even by country. Everything I’ve seen on Seydlitz would indicate no boot.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Classic Warships
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After looking through my extensive collection of IGN images, I believe the following website to be correct.......

http://german-navy.tripod.com/sms_paint-overview.htm

Dark gray for the boot topping.

Steve Wiper
www.classicwarships.com


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:50 am 
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CLASSIC WARSHIPS wrote:
Dark gray for the boot topping.


Tucked away somewhere, but I think my copy of the 1911 paint regulation states exactly this.


Happy painting ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:51 am 
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- Bismark had yellow turret tops when sunk
- Tiger 1 tanks were painted Green in tunisia
- German ships had no boot topping in WW1 on battlecruisers
- Mikasa had ochre masts

list goes on but all are failing some very basic common sense logic tests. Paint the boot topping on the Seydlitz and know you have an accurate model.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:36 am 
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I second Olaf:

German Navy had Dark Grey boottopping, on battleships and battlecruisers the width was standard 2 meters high, so 5.7 mm in scale 1:350. This was so in WW 1 and also in WW 2. On small cruisers I found the width was 1 m.

Whether SMS Seydlitz was an exception to the rule I cannot say, but in case of doubt I would stick to the above.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:49 pm 
Look at the phots of von der Tann and Seyd in drydock after jutland. The red anti-fouling ends way below the waterline. There was no boot topping. See Gary Schiff’s marvelous book on the German WWI battlecruisers for phots. There are plenty on the web of Seyd in drydock after Jutland.

And, by the way, the Anton turret (the forward turret) had an ID marking (contrary to some sources) and it was a large, white ball, not an outline of a circle.

Note: all boats landed after war declared, this includes the their cradles. There was one small boat carried on top of the starboard wing turret. At Jutland, the derricks for the cranes were also removed, as well as the enclosed wheelhouse forward of the conning tower.

Seyd most definitely had the red ID paint on her aft funnel. British gunnery officers observed this in the battle.

She still had the casemate for the forward superstructure 8.8 but the guns were removed. The 8.8 casemates aft had their guns removed. The gunports were covered.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:48 am 
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J Spencer wrote:
Look at the phots of von der Tann and Seyd in drydock after jutland. The red anti-fouling ends way below the waterline. There was no boot topping. See Gary Schiff’s marvelous book on the German WWI battlecruisers for phots. There are plenty on the web of Seyd in drydock after Jutland.
.


This picture? it shows boot topping. What are you on about? Its so perfectly striaght at the bows. Versus normal port grime that lines around it. Its worn out, very much so, but its there. Even the red is worn out.


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/55/50 ... 693ec5.jpg

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Looking again at the book there is a photo on p.154 showing Seydlitz in July 1913 with what seems to be a grey boot topping. I think that the whole area of dirty darker grey between the red lower hull and lighter grey upper hull in the famous pic of her in the floating dock is boot topping.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:07 am 
The photo posted is not Seyd after Jutland. It was taken prewar. What you mistake for boot topping is grime. Look at the post-Jutland drydock photos. She had just come out of drydock before Jutland and her hull was very clean.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:39 am 
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Image

More on the boot top discussion. It appears there may be a different color separating the upper hull from the lower hull. What throws me off is the width does not seem to correspond to a boot top, and the color gradient is only slightly darker than the upper hull.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:59 am 
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The boot topping on German ships was dark grey (not black!) and therefore if faded there is not much contrast to be expected compared to a dark red lower hull.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:41 pm 
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If only those Germans had used color film, they could have saved the modelling world a boatload of worry! :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Spot wrote:
If only those Germans had used color film, they could have saved the modelling world a boatload of worry! :wave_1:


As indicated above, paint regulations have survived.

Those "colours" have survived well into the WWII-era, with most of them fitted into the RAL scheme (if I remember correctly, 1941-ish).

Around WWI and before, it is believed that they used formulas to achieved the desired hue, i.e. by adding ashes to "white" to get shades of grey, or to add sand to get some anti-slippery paint, and so on. I never dug into this, but I have read an interesting article about mixing paints for ocean liners, in this case around 1907 (Lusitania) and 1911 (Olympic). I recall a heated discussion about the true appearance of the so-called White Star Buff and others. I bet procedures on German shipyards were not that different when it comes to mixing paints, no matter if for civilian or military ships.

And don't forget that nobody knows what happened to the colours on b/w photos from 100+ years ago...


Happy painting ~ Olaf!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:43 pm 
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When I build my 1/350 SMS Konig I will likely include a gray boot topping, because that seems to be what the photos I've seen show.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:56 am 
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J Spencer wrote:
The photo posted is not Seyd after Jutland. It was taken prewar. What you mistake for boot topping is grime. Look at the post-Jutland drydock photos. She had just come out of drydock before Jutland and her hull was very clean.


If that perfectly straight line at the bows is grime you got me. But looks like a worn off boot topping. Logic says it is boot topping. Also - above posts all collaborate the fact that german regulations at the time specified boot topping. BUt hey, you build your ship any way you like. A ship with anti fouling red that ends couple of meters before the waterline does look super wierd though, so there is that.

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