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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Would you ever consider modeling an 'impression?' That is, a model for which you have no plans, and for which plans are unobtainable?

Case in point. I saw this photo years ago in a book I bought I saw this ship:
Image

And it was love at first sight. I have searched and searched and searched for plans of the Ly-ee-moon...in vain. She was reconstructed at a later date to screw-propulsion, a different rig, and different funnels, but it is this first version that I find irresistible. So...I'm torn. I don't have plans. I think, honestly, there are no plans available now.

So, would you do it? With no plans, but with a general knowledge of vessels of this type? I'd have to completely improvise the deck plan...and the sheer and hull lines would all be guesses as well. But my goodness, how great would she look on my shelf!

I welcome your thoughts. Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:42 pm 
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We build "never-builts" in fairly significant numbers. Model railroaders have been known to synthesize entire railroads, including hypothetical locomotives and rolling stock, so I don't see why building a ship like this that actually existed and for which at least some minimal amount of illustration is available. Why not?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:07 pm 
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You won't know if you got anything wrong, and neither will anyone else! Therefore, no criticisms - just admiration. :big_grin:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:04 pm 
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A club I belong to - the Ship Modelers Association (SMA) - has many members who do just that, gleaning just about every detail from old artwork and written references to scratchbuild incredible wooden vessels. Every meeting is a "show and tell" event, and time and again I've been amazed at how much they relish the melding of artistic interpretation (not artistic license, mind you - interpretation between the various paintings/drawings available and deducing which are more likely to be accurate/proportional, picking up on details one artist focused on that another missed, etc.) with fragmentary data and knowledge about construction materials and methods of the time and place the vessels were constructed. It all seems like a given to them, they're so used to this kind of approach.
(On the flip side, they often tell me how amazed they are with the intricate PE work and rigging on my usually 1:700-scale vessels. To which I think, "Who cares about my plastic kit with aftermarket parts, next to your steam-bent-plank-on-frame, self-weaved rope, lathed cannon, hand-carved figurehead, truly "museum-quality" masterpiece?)

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:22 am 
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Hi Callen

whilst not a never were....

I have always been fascinated by the " Cigar Ships"



These are NOT actually fantasy ships
( but may as well have been in their outlandish midships belt paddle wheel guise ) :cool_2: :cool_2:

Attachment:
cigare.jpg
cigare.jpg [ 73.21 KiB | Viewed 642 times ]





and a CGI (sub 1 minute) movielet of a centre paddler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qioheu77MWs

' nuff talking-- I must get on and do it!




there IS a card kit available with the screws at either end...- encs link
https://www.waldenfont.com/papermodels/ ... oductid=10

but really I would have to build the centre paddle version !!!

but in 1/350

here is a card kit in 1/120 ( huge)

Attachment:
cigar _Winans_cover.jpg
cigar _Winans_cover.jpg [ 92.55 KiB | Viewed 657 times ]






Cheers
JB

Attachment:
cigar ship1.jpg
cigar ship1.jpg [ 269.93 KiB | Viewed 657 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:05 am 
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If you can't find references to your Ly-ee-moon, look for pics and plans of other similar ships in that period (mid-1860's?) for general layouts and rigging.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:39 am 
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The HMY Victoria and Albert II (1855) looks quite similar and might give you some inspirations. There is a model of the Victoria and Albert II in the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London, but it isn't on display: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 66843.html


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Go for it. First, draw the design of your model, including dimensions. Second, itemize every part that your completed model must comprise. Can you scratch-build critical parts?

Our scratch-assemblies of never-were designs are a big part of the fun of this hobby and can be illuminating about history. One example: Norman Friedman details in his book U. S. Cruisers--A Design History the original 1939 design for USN CL-55/56 to mount five dual-purpose 6-inch gun twin turrets and a catapult. These ships had to comply with the 1936 London Treaty limit of 8,000 tons standard displacement. Congress authorized two of these cruisers to succeed the Atlanta class. From a starting a scratch-build of the hull, I question whether the USN design would really fit within the treaty limit. When the 8,000-ton limit became irrelevant because the treaty partners went to war in 1939, the USN built the authorized cruisers instead as the first two ships of the Cleveland class.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:41 pm 
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If you wait on perfect knowledge you will never build a model.

Honestly, there are very few builds where several details have not been resolved using an educated guess or several. Sometimes the information needed just does not exist, sometimes unimpeachable references contradict. Go for it!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Callen wrote
>>....Would you ever consider modeling an 'impression?' That is, a model for which you have no plans, and for which plans are unobtainable?....<<


Your lovely old lithograph reminded me of a similar instant love for a ship which I developed on my 28 Birthday....
and triggered my memory

( the image is in a book given to 25 years ago ( arghhh! ) as a gift.
==> inscribed as being my 28 Birthday present...)

I evidently have too much time on my hands at the moment!

it only took 3 short hours to remember in which book the image was...and to find the book.... ahhahah! :thumbs_up_1:

This ship is sleek, handsome, rakish , bold, outrageous and wonderful....

but never built...

SPIRIT OF THE AGE


Attachments:
IMG_20180103_0004.jpg
IMG_20180103_0004.jpg [ 295.35 KiB | Viewed 558 times ]

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....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:32 pm 
Hi Callen;
You certainly picked a tough one. If you really like the look of the ship, perhaps that will give you the stamina to do the research. During the time period of 1850-1900 there was a lot of experimentation going on involving paddle wheel steam propulsion versus screw propeller. For some reason many early side wheel ocean going paddle steamers started with clipper ship hull designs. That's a design clue. You can get started on the research path by going to SS Ly ee moon on Wikipedia. There is an article about the ship and it contains a section of external web sources. Another way to go is to use Google for the ships name. That will give you a menu of source sites. There will also be a section of illustrations to hunt through. Some of them may be useful and a lot will have no connection. It won't give you immediate answers, but it should point you in the correct direction. You can also expand your search by looking at maritime documents concerning Australian ships, and opium clippers in general. It is unquestionably going to be a lot of work.
If it is any comfort, I went through two years digging up data about the USS Susquehanna, which also happens to be a side-wheel paddle steamer of some historic significance. Gorgeous clipper hull. getting the rigging right was a real pain.
Above all, do not be afraid to tangle with scratch building. Even a failure is going to teach you a good deal about techniques, and information hunting. Good luck.
Regards, rjccjr


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:31 pm 
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JIM BAUMANN wrote:
Hi Callen

whilst not a never were....

I have always been fascinated by the " Cigar Ships"



These are NOT actually fantasy ships
( but may as well have been in their outlandish midships belt paddle wheel guise ) :cool_2: :cool_2:

Attachment:
cigare.jpg





and a CGI (sub 1 minute) movielet of a centre paddler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qioheu77MWs

' nuff talking-- I must get on and do it!




there IS a card kit available with the screws at either end...- encs link
https://www.waldenfont.com/papermodels/ ... oductid=10

but really I would have to build the centre paddle version !!!

but in 1/350

here is a card kit in 1/120 ( huge)

Attachment:
cigar _Winans_cover.jpg






Cheers
JB

Attachment:
cigar ship1.jpg


Jim!

The Winans ships have always fascinated me! I've been scheming for years how to create that incredible hull. I've often thought of scratch-building a fictional carrack or frigate or something, and then building a Winans ship to go along side it as a bit of a maritime history foil:

'One of these ships really existed and one of them is a complete fiction? Which do you think is the real one?'

The Winans are proof that 'truth is stranger than fiction.'

The only thing is...how to do that cigar hull? It's gotta be perfect. Haven't figured it out yet.

CheerS!
:thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Thank you all for the encouraging and supportive replies. It reminds me of one of the best reasons to be a ship modeler: the other ship modelers. Some of the guys here remember me from the 'old days' before I left ship modeling, six years ago, to pursue original science fiction scratch built space ships. At the time I assumed (naively) that 'modelers were modelers' wherever you go. But the enthusiasm and engagement I had come to enjoy here at MW was not replicated in the SF modeling communities that I encountered.

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, and I've met some nice fellows out there in the SF community,
but, well, it's not the same. I suppose it was silly of me to think it would be. SF modeling has other joys though. There's nothing quite like giving shape to something that's never existed.
...Unless, of course, it's giving shape to something that no longer exists, which is what quite a lot of us do here. But the community here is quite extraordinary and rewarding. Although my SF modeling is not going to go away, I find I simply can't do without historic ships in my life. It was never my intent to abandon the hobby, I just got busy with other projects...well, now I'm back, and I'm staying.

As for the question at hand, this quote:
SeanF wrote:
A club I belong to - the Ship Modelers Association (SMA) - has many members who do just that, gleaning just about every detail from old artwork and written references to scratchbuild incredible wooden vessels. Every meeting is a "show and tell" event, and time and again I've been amazed at how much they relish the melding of artistic interpretation (not artistic license, mind you - interpretation between the various paintings/drawings available and deducing which are more likely to be accurate/proportional, picking up on details one artist focused on that another missed, etc.) with fragmentary data and knowledge about construction materials and methods of the time and place the vessels were constructed. It all seems like a given to them, they're so used to this kind of approach.
(On the flip side, they often tell me how amazed they are with the intricate PE work and rigging on my usually 1:700-scale vessels. To which I think, "Who cares about my plastic kit with aftermarket parts, next to your steam-bent-plank-on-frame, self-weaved rope, lathed cannon, hand-carved figurehead, truly "museum-quality" masterpiece?)

- Sean F.


...really stirred my kettle. Wow. No plans are no barrier any more. I'm going to do this thing!

I even have a strategy for improving the accuracy of my models in the absence of documentation. I'll simply begin a project, post my progress in the WIP section and arrogantly declare: 'this model is totally accurate with no errors of any kind...' and then just wait for someone more knowledgable than me to pipe up with some corrections.
:cool_2:

Ok, so, thanks again for the comments. Happy Modeling!
:woo_hoo:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:07 am 
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I think it wouldn't be too difficult to find lines plans and GAs for similar yacht-like paddle-wheelers from the middle of the 19th century. I have seen such plans in French sources, for instance, and in contemporary textbooks on shipbuilding. So you may need to transfer your love just to another, similar ship for which more material is available.

In general, I am not so much in favour of 'fantasy' ships, but there are certain kinds of ships (generally commercial, not naval vessels) for which it is virtually impossible to collate enough information to claim that a model represents a particular ship with any degree of confidence. If you like this kind of ship, you may have to go for a 'type ship', one that shows the typical features of the kind of ship without claiming to represent a particular one. This is a valid approach used even in museums (which face often the same challenges as us amateurs).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:27 am 
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I would recommend to search for a similar ship, for which there could be plans. The form of the ship is very elegant, but if it was not built like that, I would ignore it. That means, I am the opinion that fictitious ships are boring. For sure, that does not mean that a model of such a ship built by others would be boring - the opposite is likely true - only that I focus on built ships. There are too many interesting ships to be built for one life.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Thank you, wefalck, for your useful information about how professional museums label their models that illustrate a notional design without misleading viewers.

I do think that modeling never-were designs has value when the design is of a ship type (or of anything else) that governmental authorities declined. A model can help us to evaluate in the light of actual history whether the rejection lost an opportunity for an operationally good weapon, or alternatively whether the rejection still appears wise or even should have been rejected earlier before design resources were wasted. Some rejected designs were revised and built in new form, famously the RN 1920 battle cruiser design that led to the actual HMS Nelson and Rodney.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:07 pm 
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callen, check these out as gives some dimensions & who made it.
https://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/v ... page_id=90
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newsp ... 71124.2.27
https://books.google.ca/books?id=7H8zja ... on&f=false
https://www.google.ca/search?q=who+owne ... =911&dpr=1


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:57 pm 
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maxim wrote:
I would recommend to search for a similar ship, for which there could be plans. The form of the ship is very elegant, but if it was not built like that, I would ignore it. That means, I am the opinion that fictitious ships are boring. For sure, that does not mean that a model of such a ship built by others would be boring - the opposite is likely true - only that I focus on built ships. There are too many interesting ships to be built for one life.



Just to be clear to everyone, the lithograph at the beginning that I shared is not a fictitious ship. The ship was later rebuilt from paddle to screw steam, and all the photos of her are in her later fit. The lithograph is of her 'as built' configuration.
:thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:16 pm 
Hi Callen;

A couple of comments about research and archiving. Photographic documentation became available shortly before the American civil war. Before that time documentation came from plans, where available, builders half hulls , and occasionally designers models. Documentation for warships was generally more available than for commercial vessels. Going back even further the design basis for many models came from contemporary art such as paintings and lithographs. In many cases, the lithographs turned out to be surprisingly accurate when compared to written sources and statistics. "Maybe" models and drawings are part and parcel of marine architecture.

For example, while going through some material at the Hart Nautical Institute, years ago, I came across the plans for USS Lexington CV-2. These included drawings of multiple versions of the ship as a battle cruiser along with the drawings for the carrier. There were 5500 drawings in the bundle. While construct ion of the battle cruiser was pretty well along, the only version which got as far as launching was the carrier. There are numerous reproductions of the battle cruiser version, which can loosely be called what if's.
Also discovered in the research were several preliminary design sketches for destroyers and one for a light cruiser. These drawings were made in the nineteen twenties. The structure of the DDs could be easily identified as being progenitors of the Farragut class destroyer. The heavy cruiser USS Pensacola design was unmistakably evident in the light cruiser drawing. These drawings were pencil sketches on vellum, and extremely fragile. Elastic bands look like sticky dead worms after years in archives.Much of what we know about the external configuration of the USS Constitution is based on paintings of the ship commissioned by her captains mostly after the war of 1812. The hull is verifiable by original documentation, but the armament, sail plan, rigging and external configuration all evolved significantly over the years. The actual vessel is sitting in Boston harbor right now, and approximately eighteen percent of it is original timber. It is arguably the most carefully researched and maintained commissioned warship in the world.
Any model in creation can only be as accurate as the research behind it. Don't be afraid to venture into creativity. If you have done enough homework, no one can really criticize your effort. When it comes to modeling, there is an eternal war between knowledge and physical capability. Most scholars have been there and, usually being gentlemen, wouldn't criticize your efforts.

Hope you find this interesting, if not useful.

Regards rjccjr


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