The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:00 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:08 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:11 am
Posts: 449
Location: Elyria, Ohio USA
I love using PE rails on my 1/700 builds. I just really like the way they look with the rails and other PE on them. I am hooked on PE :heh:

_________________
Just finished:
1/700 USS Baltimore late 1943

Current projects:
1/350 HMS Hood 1941
1/700 USS Missouri 1991


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:57 am
Posts: 13
Timmy C wrote:
For example, when using a blade to cut stainless, instead of the part separating cleanly from the fret because the blade is harder than the PE, the attachment area digs down into the cutting surface without actually separating. I should probably get a harder cutting surface, but those are usually more slippery than I'd like.

I use a curved blade (usually the X-acto #12) and cut on a piece of bathroom tile (which are like 10 cents individually). I use scissors a lot, but like you said that isn't always possible. You have to resharpen the blade often, but it works. It's really not possible to cut stainless steel parts on wood, and cutting them with a #11 is a great way to get the tip of a blade in the eye. I found that out the hard way.

_________________
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news." - Cave Johnson, Portal 2


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:08 am
Posts: 993
Location: West Sussex / Cornwall
Timmy C wrote:
That could work in some instances, but in others, the gap between parts to be separated are too small to fit anything but an Xacto blade (whatever the #), such as railings connected to adjacent railings.


Actually it is pretty straightforward. Hold the fret by one edge and start cutting. As you cut the free side sags and widens given plenty of room and means you can clear off any spur at the same time. Kitchen Devils work very well, I have used the same pair for about 10 years.

_________________
IPMS Fine Waterline Special Interest Group


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:32 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:12 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Up The Street From Sam Wilson's House
My thing is I want them to be robust for ease of use and not crumple easily.

_________________
Thomas E. Johnson

http://www.youtube.com/user/ThomasEJohnson


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:25 am
Posts: 2141
Location: Los Angeles and Houston
In the theme of "They are way over scale," I would like to point out an optical phenomenon called the Mach Effect.

The Mach Effect is where we see contrasting patterns next to objects that are contrasted next to each other or the background.

So, due to scale-effects, the Mach Effect can make the railings on a real ship seen at a distance appear to be larger than they actually are. Take a look at some of the photos on Navsource showing the ship at a slight distance. You’ll notice on many of them you can still make out the railings.

This is because of the Mach Effect (and another optical distortion where refraction around a hard-edge causes it to be higher contrast than it is, making the Mach Effect stronger).

For that reason, I go with railings on 1/700 ships.

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:46 am
Posts: 243
Timmy C wrote:
Tangent: I actually dislike the robustness of "stainless steel" PE. It makes it so much harder to cut and fold in the way I expect it to. With everything else in the hobby being an activity of minor movements with big changes resulting from minor forces, having to overcome the much higher resistance of the steel ends up with greater mangling than softer brass.

For example, when using a blade to cut stainless, instead of the part separating cleanly from the fret because the blade is harder than the PE, the attachment area digs down into the cutting surface without actually separating. I should probably get a harder cutting surface, but those are usually more slippery than I'd like.


I have found that the hard plastic of certain plastic containers is ideal for cutting PE on. they also make dedicated matts for cutting PE, check e-bay.

Cutting on really hard surfaces like glass or plexiglass works well too, but is very hard on blades.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 1584
Location: Munich, Germany
I am using a big surface hardened ceramic tile as my work area, which is actually designed to cover floor in a bathroom. Picked it from construction store for about 1 euro or so, selected one which was lightly evenly colored, and had a flat, matte surface. 30x60 cm is also ideal as a work area. Normally covered with a cutting mat, but when doing PE, I remove the mat and place a sheet of printer paper on it. Not enough to make PE bend, but allows the blade to live longer, and also increases "findability" of tiny PE pieces.

Only drawback is that blades are very rapidly wearing down, maybe also as I use quite cheap blades from construction store, but they are so cheap that I can really switch them after some 20-30 PE parts and use a new one. Then blades are used for plastic cutting or converted to other tools (for example scribers, hooks, etc, produced on a diamond disk in a proxxon), and when not usable or broken dumped.

_________________
1/350 Mare Island Navy Yard 1944 - suspended
1/700 Pre-Dreads - Lai Yuan (SS-Models)


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6559
Location: New York City
Quote:
Can anyone recommend some 1/700 PE railing that’s firm and easy to work with without destroying it?


For which navy?


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:13 am 
Online

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:12 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Up The Street From Sam Wilson's House
Dan K wrote:
Quote:
Can anyone recommend some 1/700 PE railing that’s firm and easy to work with without destroying it?


For which navy?


USA WW2.

_________________
Thomas E. Johnson

http://www.youtube.com/user/ThomasEJohnson


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:21 pm
Posts: 2873
Location: One valley over from Hayward fault.
I am in the no camp for 1/700 scale. Once railing is painted, they look even more grossly overscale.

I think there are two schools of thought in what makes a good model. One school tried to impress with how much detail is captured, in scale or not. In this school the purpose of railing is style and the box next to it needs to be checked for satisfaction.

Another tried to make the model accurate and look like how the real ship might appear when viewed from a distance proportional to the distance the model is views, in this school the purpose of the railing is it should be there if, when viewing the real ship from scale equivalent distance, the railing would be noticed.

I belong firmly to the second school.

I only include railing on 1/350 or larger. But on 1/200, I don’t just include flat railing cut out of a single sheet of PE. I make sure stanchion braces etc are there too. Where the railing stanchions are thicker I beams, like on weather deck of many WWII era USN ships, then I fold over a thin shape cut from 0.25mm styrene to reflect the thickness and flanges of the stanchions, because when you look at a real ship from a scale equivalent of 8 inches away from a 1/200 ships, these details are noticeable.

_________________
Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:17 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 10507
Location: Calgary, AB/Surrey, B.C., Canada
Thanks folks for the suggestion on the bathroom tile surface! Will pick one up next time I'm near a hardware store.

chuck wrote:
when viewing the real ship from scale equivalent distance, the railing would be noticed.



I never really understood the logic behind this argument. Do we all just stand there and look at our models from a fixed distance every time? Of course not! Sometimes we look at them from across the room, sometimes we get our noses right up to them, and nevermind taking photos of them for sharing with others. The scale distance changes, so unless you put the models behind a barrier that forces the viewer to always view the model from a fixed minimum distance, there is otherwise no logical single "scale distance" that a model should be detailed for.

There are good reasons for why some detailing should not be done or attempted (e.g. technological and dexterity limitations), but "scale distance" is one of the weaker ones in my mind.

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:37 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:12 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Up The Street From Sam Wilson's House
Timmy C wrote:
Thanks folks for the suggestion on the bathroom tile surface! Will pick one up next time I'm near a hardware store.

chuck wrote:
when viewing the real ship from scale equivalent distance, the railing would be noticed.



I never really understood the logic behind this argument. Do we all just stand there and look at our models from a fixed distance every time? Of course not! Sometimes we look at them from across the room, sometimes we get our noses right up to them, and nevermind taking photos of them for sharing with others. The scale distance changes, so unless you put the models behind a barrier that forces the viewer to always view the model from a fixed minimum distance, there is otherwise no logical single "scale distance" that a model should be detailed for.

There are good reasons for why some detailing should not be done or attempted (e.g. technological and dexterity limitations), but "scale distance" is one of the weaker ones in my mind.


That’s kinda actually what I was thinking. I want to place my 1/700 ships in a diorama seascape, and under cases that will cover them, as well as be the said barrier that forces viewer to always view the model from a set minimum distance, which I was thinking of setting at 1 foot from the model(s).

_________________
Thomas E. Johnson

http://www.youtube.com/user/ThomasEJohnson


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 401
If PE railings are considered oversize, then certainly, too, ladders (both inclined and vertical), radars, and countless other PE bits, not to mention many light AA weapons. A great excuse for not wanting to apply PE! :big_grin:
:wave_1:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:46 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:12 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Up The Street From Sam Wilson's House
drasticplastic wrote:
If PE railings are considered oversize, then certainly, too, ladders (both inclined and vertical), radars, and countless other PE bits, not to mention many light AA weapons. A great excuse for not wanting to apply PE! :big_grin:
:wave_1:


So true!!! :heh:

_________________
Thomas E. Johnson

http://www.youtube.com/user/ThomasEJohnson


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:21 pm
Posts: 2873
Location: One valley over from Hayward fault.
Timmy C wrote:
Thanks folks for the suggestion on the bathroom tile surface! Will pick one up next time I'm near a hardware store.

chuck wrote:
when viewing the real ship from scale equivalent distance, the railing would be noticed.



I never really understood the logic behind this argument. Do we all just stand there and look at our models from a fixed distance every time? Of course not! Sometimes we look at them from across the room, sometimes we get our noses right up to them, and nevermind taking photos of them for sharing with others. The scale distance changes, so unless you put the models behind a barrier that forces the viewer to always view the model from a fixed minimum distance, there is otherwise no logical single "scale distance" that a model should be detailed for.

There are good reasons for why some detailing should not be done or attempted (e.g. technological and dexterity limitations), but "scale distance" is one of the weaker ones in my mind.



What is the closest distance from which you are likely to admire you model after it’s finished?

A foot?

Looking at an 1/700 scale model from 12 inches is equivalent to looking at a real ship from 700 feet away. Would railings on a real ship be conspicuous from almost 700 feet away? Probably not. Can you make PE railing as inconspicuous at 12 inches as real railings would be at 700 feet?

Looking at a 1/200 scale model from 12 inches is equivalent to looking at a real ship from 200 feet away. Will you notice the railings? Very likely. Can you make PE railing look about as conspicuous a 12 inches as real railing would be at 200 feet? i’d Say probably.


The fundamental issue is 1/700 scale PE railings themselves are grossly overscale in terms thickness of railing bars. If you scale up 1/700 scale PE railing, the bars in the railing would be 6-8 inches thick. So it is difficult for 1/700 PE railing to look right to my eyes.

With 1/200 scale, the railings bars would scale out to just a little over an inch thick. That is actually close to correct in scale.

_________________
Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 1584
Location: Munich, Germany
About overscale issue -
Look at this photo in full res. This is HMS Bulwark entering Malta. She is about 200 meters away, assuming she is in the middle of shipping channel, as the photo is taken most likely from around the war Memorial or Lower Barakka Gardens area, and she is passing the Ricasoli East breakwater. Railings are well visible and quite prominent. 200 m is about 30 cm in model, and if you enter competitions, your model will be watched from such a distance. Also at home, I have a glass-front shelves for my models which are 30 cm deep. The visitors are going very close, I actually wished a few nose-prints from the glass last time ;)



https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7474/15291064054_3ca8c16382_o.jpg

_________________
1/350 Mare Island Navy Yard 1944 - suspended
1/700 Pre-Dreads - Lai Yuan (SS-Models)


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 401
If you want to build for yourself, and omit railings, and other PE, then good for you. But be prepared to be criticized by other modelers who do use PE.
:wave_1:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:21 pm
Posts: 2873
Location: One valley over from Hayward fault.
drasticplastic wrote:
If you want to build for yourself, and omit railings, and other PE, then good for you. But be prepared to be criticized by other modelers who do use PE.
:wave_1:


Other modelers kann leck mich im Arsch.

_________________
Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 6440
Location: In the hills of North Jersey
Lordy, you guys love to argue about sh*t and take the conversation off the rails. :roll:

At the end of the day, it's your damn model. Build it how you want.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:45 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Abu Dhabi
MartinJQuinn wrote:
Lordy, you guys love to argue about sh*t and take the conversation off the rails. :roll:

At the end of the day, it's your damn model. Build it how you want.


:rolf_3:

Next.... to rig or not to rig in 1/700 : that is the question :rolf_3:

_________________
No Whine Policy
1.- Modify it
2.- Ignore it
3.- Don't build it


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mister me, Thomas E. Johnson, Vladi and 17 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group