The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:35 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
Does anyone know of drawings or at least overall dimensions for the planned twin 5-in DP gun mounts intended to be installed on Z-46 and Z-47?

The only drawings I have come across showing the mounts are small drawings of the planned ships in Whitley's book. There is some question as to whether any of these guns/mounts were actually built even though the first two destroyers did start construction before being damaged in bombing raids.

I'm curious of how these mounts would have compared to the USN twin 5-in mounts and other comparable RN DP mounts intended for destroyers.

Thanks


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:44 pm
Posts: 618
Location: Herk-de-Stad, Belgium
is this the one you're looking for?
Attachment:
WNGER_59-48_skc36_Turret_Sketch.jpg
WNGER_59-48_skc36_Turret_Sketch.jpg [ 28.05 KiB | Viewed 486 times ]

_________________
"There are more planes in the ocean, than submarines in the sky" - old carrier sailor


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:46 am
Posts: 297
Not this type?
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0593901.jpg
:wave_1:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2211
That's a twin 150mm turret, IIRC.

The most extensive original source does not mention them (some upload here:)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B12aaMD ... lQTkU/edit


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
Maarten, thanks for the sketch!! Even if the ships (or gun mounts) were never built, I assumed that there were drawings of what the engineers were working to build. I wondered if any engineering drawings for this Type 36C project survived the war. This is only a basic sketch, but still has useful dimensions and basic internal layout. Again, THANKS!!

I may try to model this mount to see what it would look like compared to USN twin 5-in mounts.

EJFoeth wrote:
The most extensive original source does not mention them (some upload here:)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B12aaMD ... lQTkU/edit


I'm not surprised that this gun/mount isn't mentioned in this publication ... it was printed in 1942, before the Type 36C "class" was ordered/started. All the same, an interesting document.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:44 pm
Posts: 618
Location: Herk-de-Stad, Belgium
You're welcome, Rick!

I had been wondering why the filename read SKC 36, but maybe it was confused with the ship's class.

_________________
"There are more planes in the ocean, than submarines in the sky" - old carrier sailor


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
Depending on the source of the image, the file name can be anything that the person responsible wanted to put on it. It would have been nice if the drawing producer had included a caption with more details.

Doing a brief comparison of the dimensions (I converted mm to inches) of this mount compared to the USN 5-in/38cal twin mount used on destroyers, I came up with a comparison of basic dimensions;

GUN ................. 128mm SK C/41 twin mount ..... 5-in/38cal twin mount
......................... (Type 36C destroyers)

length .............. 227.56-in .................................. 191-in

width ............... 138.86-in .................................. 181-in

barrel spacing .. Approx. 65.6-in (scaled dwg) ..... 84-in

The German mount would have been shorter and narrower than the USN twin mount. The gun barrel spacing points to the guns being a ganged pair rather than the USN mating of two single guns on one platform.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:44 pm
Posts: 618
Location: Herk-de-Stad, Belgium
An estimate of the weight of the turret would be useful too. I think the German design was considerably lighter than the USN turret, maybe as much as 30 to 40 %.

This of course is necessary because of the design of the 1936 Type destroyer classes, having a very sleek hull requiring a low metacenter height. In other words, with a USN turret the thing might have rolled over!

The USN designs of the era were much sturdier build, at the expense of greater weight and hence needed HP and fuel consumption. In short, bigger boats at the expense of more money.

_________________
"There are more planes in the ocean, than submarines in the sky" - old carrier sailor


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 1806
the German twin gun mount is overall longer then the USN destroyer twin gun mount so is possible the German mount is heavier then the USN mount.
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0458.htm


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
I don't know if the weight provided in references for the German twin 5-in gyn mount (DP or not) is accurate, but is quoted as being 80,290 lbs. The twin 5-in/38 Mk 38 mount used on SUMNER-GEARING class is given as 95,700 lbs. So, the German mount was planned to be a bit lighter.

But, the German Type 36 hull was 416.5-ft long (OA) by 40-ft wide, weighing in at 2,600 tons for the Z37-39 group and projected to be 2,575 tons on the same hull.

The USN SUMNER class hull was 376.5-ft long (OA) by 41-ft wide, weighing 2,200 tons and the GEARING class hull was 390.5-ft by 41-ft wide.

So I doubt that the German ships would have "rolled-over" if they had received USN "destroyer" 5-in/38 twin mounts. Particularly if they were mounted one forward and two aft as was planned for Z46-47. :big_grin:

This photo of Z-39 alongside a GEARING DDR shows that the Type 36 hull was quite a bit larger than the USN FLETCHER-SUMNER-GEARING classes hull.

Image


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:23 am
Posts: 2237
Location: Copenhagen
The German 12,8 cm K.M. 41 in Drh.L. C 38 (LM 41) were not designed to be dual purpose, but should had - if they ever would have built, which apparently they were not - only 40° elevation. That is the likely reason, why they should not be as heavy as the twin turrets of the shorter 5-in/38cal.

_________________
Image


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
The references I have don't agree on the mounts elevation and may reflect continued development/refinement of the armament's function.

Groner's book on "GERMAN WARSHIPS" (first written in 1982) says that 40-degrees was the max elevation for the various twin 128mm mounts, which isn't adequate for AA fire.

Whitley's book "GERMAN DESTROYERS of WWII" (first written in 1991) says 52-degrees was the max elevation of the twin mounts, but they wanted to use it for at least limited AA fire. A single mount was to have a higher elevation angle for AA fire.

Koop's book "GERMAN DESTROYERS of WWII" (first written in 1995) doesn't even mention any of the destroyers after Z42.

Friedman's book "NAVAL AA GUN & GUNNERY" (2013) only makes brief mention of the development of HA 128mm guns and directors for destroyers in 1942-45. HA/DP Directors were built in limited numbers for the few destroyers started, so the desire was there.

It appears that at least some the German Navy wanted a DP 128mm gun for use on destroyers, but the development of such weapons was handicapped by other issues and bias on part of the operational commands.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:23 am
Posts: 2237
Location: Copenhagen
That means most references agree that this was not a DP mount. Whitley wrote something similar as Stehr and Breyer: in 1942 the Kriegsmarine was planing to replace one 12,8 cm twin of the Zerstörer 1936 C by two 12,8 cm anti aircraft guns (perhaps related to the FLAK 40) - but that in 1944 the planing was again three 12,8 cm twins (single use).

There is one 12,8 cm single purpose mount, which was never built. And the idea to design a 12,8 cm naval anti-aircraft gun, which was apparently not developed in any detail.

Friedman's chapter is my opinion really bad: he could not decide if wanted to write about the Coastal Command attacks or German anti-aircraft guns. I guess that the problem is that he cannot read any German sources. There are similar problems in other books of Friedman. He should concentrate on topics, for which he can read all the relevant literature and primary sources.

_________________
Image


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
That is all and well. But, I keep scratching my head on what they would equip these various destroyer designs with an AA-capable director?

I understand from someone off-board has told me that there is a batch of material on the German development of the "DP" mount from former USSR records. I have not seen the documentation.

At this point I'm more interested in modifying a Z37-39 kit to a Z46-47 destroyer just to see how it looked no matter if it is DP or not. So I can think about "What-if".


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 1806
Rick, would the Z52 - 56 be close enough to Z46-47 for you?


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
Z52-56 had a two mounts forward and one aft (like the SUMNER class), whereas Z46-47 (and if they had been started Z48-51) had one forward and two aft. Plus Z52-56 utilized a different hull design if I remember right without pulling out a reference book. I focus on Z46-47 because their construction was started and then suspended, if changes were made to the armament AND the German Navy could get construction started again, the design could (likely would have) have changed with whatever 128mm gun mount was developed. But, likely the mounts arrangement wouldn't have changed.

Looking at the drawings, converting a Z37-39 kit to a Z46-47 doesn't look too difficult.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:23 am
Posts: 2237
Location: Copenhagen
Gröner shows Z 46 with something like a director between the rear torpedo tubes and the rear 12.8 cm guns. There is no information, if this should have been AA-capable.

BUT: these ships were never completed. It is all speculation how they would have looked like. There were for sure plans, but these plans were also modified during the delays of the program. E.g. the anti-aircraft armament shown in Gröner would be too weak for a ship completed late in the war. There were apparently plenty of people at the end of the war designing new weapons systems to avoid to be killed in already lost war (see all the strange aircraft and tank designs now available as kits).

You could built Z 46 with missiles or a battery of 24-pounders from the 18th century. It would not matter, it would be anyway fantasy.

There is a 1/700 resin conversion set for a Zerstörer 1936 C for Trumpeter's Z 37:

"Zerstörer Typ 1936C Z-50 (1945) 1/700 Bird Models Umbausatz / resin conversion" available on Ebay by Rudolfs Bird Models.
"Complete lower super deck, 3x 12,8cm twin gun turrets and 12,8cm brass parts (6 pieces), several platforms for AA guns, lower deck top part, aft range-finder. Also there is a detailled instruction manual with photos on several pages."

and for Trumpeter's Z 28:
"Zerstörer Typ 1936C Z-46 (1942) 1/700 Bird Models Umbausatz / resin conversion"
"complete lower bridge with platform, 3x 12,8cm twin gun turrets and 12,8cm brass parts (6 pieces), 1 platforms for AA guns, water breaker, lower deck top part, aft range-finder. Also there is a detailled instruction manual with photos on several pages. "

_________________
Image


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3123
As I said, it would be a "What-If" modeling project. As such, there wouldn't necessarily be a right or wrong answer for the specifics of the build. I just choose to start with the Z46-47 design drawings that went on contract and started construction.

Chances are if these destroyers even with SP instead of DP twin 128mm gun mounts had been completed and entered service, they would have been a better all purpose destroyer than the "WWI era like Light Cruisers" with 150mm guns installed on the Type 36A types.

The Bird Models conversion sets look interesting, but I would rather work with 1/350 scale DML Type 36 kit as the baseline kit.

Groner's book is the oldest of available reference works. Are you so sure that he had access to ALL material that is available on these ships? I work with US Archives materials in researching USN destroyers and I have found many facts (and configurations) considered UNKNOWN in existing references. An example is the FLETCHER class destroyers that show errors in "stated facts" given as gospel in older reference materials. The 1950s records for the class show a lot of interesting and largely under noted configurations and why they happened. Textual records not explored before and sometimes even photos found give a more complete record. I keep an open mind for new facts surfacing on many subjects.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:23 am
Posts: 2237
Location: Copenhagen
Gröner's book is for sure old and not very detailed. It is likely that there are better information at least theoretically to be found. German archives were not complete at the time and are still not. Some of the material was destroyed (bombing), some lost, a lot was transferred to the Allied powers after the war and the question is, how much was transferred back after 1990... Unfortunately the number of recent high quality publications about German ships is extremely limited.

But if some statements, as the DP guns, are only found in English language sources (often also very old), I would also not trust them. The repeated statement that there were plans to replace some of the 12.8 cm guns with anti-aircraft guns, would indicate that they were not originally planed to have 12.8 cm DP guns and a AA capable director.

_________________
Image


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:14 am
Posts: 44
Location: SE Michigan
Warships vol 1 has some drawings, but not of the type 36C, but it can help with the shape. I think it would look like a smaller version of the 150/48 twin. I think the barrels would be mounted close like the other aa mounts of the DKM. I believe the 130/53 of the Soviets from the fifties was influenced by the German mount.
I based what I made for my 36C on the drawings from Warships. Of course I only made in in 1/700 using the SkyWave kit that was brand new back then. :thumbs_up_1:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: allan P barley, Dan K, david angelo, Firesmacker and 15 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group