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 Post subject: Raised Panel Line Issues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:20 am 
I'm building the old Entex Lusitania (now the Gunze kit I believe). As I build the hull, I've had to sand portions where the hull halves meet. Due to sanding, I've lost raised panel lines around each seam at the bow and stern areas.

My dilema....what to do to "recover" the panel lines around the sanded areas? I can do one of two things:
-Scribe the areas (which would create some semblance of the panel line lines, (although scribed rather than raised)....
-Use some sort of very fine filament, stretched sprue, or equivalent and try to glue the panel lines back.

I'm not sure I want to be so anal about these lost panel lines, yet I'm open to ideas.

Thanks in advance for suggestions.....


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:15 pm 
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I would think the stretched sprue might be the most likely to replicate the raised panel lines, but another method you could try would be to mask off where the panels lines had been and then fill in with something like Mr. Surfacer or potentially even baking soda and thin CA glue. It's going to have a more squared off appearance, but you should be able to sand a bit and bevel down the square corners. This is one reason I suggested the baking soda and CA glue as it's harder and might provide better ability to get the same appearance.... I would still practice and test though first before committing anything to plastic with CA.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:16 pm 
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A technique I learned from Loren Perry many years ago is to cut a line directly onto the missing section of raised panel line using a straight edge to guide the knife. A sharp xacto #11 blade will create a small ridge on either side of the cut line. Or on one side, if the blade angled slightly off centre. When painted, the ridge will fill with paint, leaving a reasonable facsimile of a raised panel line.

I used this method to replace sanded sections of the raised deck lines on this titanic.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:48 pm 
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Admhawk wrote:
A technique I learned from Loren Perry many years ago is to cut a line directly onto the missing section of raised panel line using a straight edge to guide the knife. A sharp xacto #11 blade will create a small ridge on either side of the cut line. Or on one side, if the blade angled slightly off centre. When painted, the ridge will fill with paint, leaving a reasonable facsimile of a raised panel line.

I used this method to replace sanded sections of the raised deck lines on this titanic.
Image



Exactly this: People hang up on raised lines, when they are actually simplest thing to re-establish...

Engraved hull lines in ships don't really look better to my eyes. Ideally a mixture of styles, raised plating, engraved rivets, engraved lines, raised rivets, and raised lines all at once would look more "alive". The worst is having the same thing all over.

This is why old Monogram aircrafts surface detail looks quite "alive", especially their B-17G and the P-38J, with its amazing finely raised rivets.

Gaston


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:22 am 
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Well, I think there is only one criterion: how did it look like on the prototype ? Raised deck seams are an invention of the mold-maker of injection-molded kits, it is easy to engrave them; in reality these seams are either flush, or perhaps slightly depressed. On the hull of ships you would either see the raised strakes in rivetted ships or basically nothing in welded ships; some warships were also built with flush rivetted strakes above the waterline, if anything at all you would see slightly depressed seams between plates and strakes.

Similarly, raised aircraft panel lines are a nonsense, as all panels would be flush (for aerodynamic reasons) and if anything one would see a minimal gap between panels - just look out of the window of an aircraft.

So adding raised seams on ships are a raterh misguided attempt to create visual interest. Just have a look at pictures of your prototype.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:53 am 
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wefalck wrote:
Well, I think there is only one criterion: how did it look like on the prototype ? Raised deck seams are an invention of the mold-maker of injection-molded kits, it is easy to engrave them; in reality these seams are either flush, or perhaps slightly depressed. On the hull of ships you would either see the raised strakes in rivetted ships or basically nothing in welded ships; some warships were also built with flush rivetted strakes above the waterline, if anything at all you would see slightly depressed seams between plates and strakes.

Similarly, raised aircraft panel lines are a nonsense, as all panels would be flush (for aerodynamic reasons) and if anything one would see a minimal gap between panels - just look out of the window of an aircraft.

So adding raised seams on ships are a raterh misguided attempt to create visual interest. Just have a look at pictures of your prototype.


This is pretty old news. The reality is, a lot of modellers don't want to rescribe an old kit, they just want to make it look reasonably good. Calling it a misguided attempt is a bit of a harsh judgement for a hobby where there are many different levels of skill, enjoyment, and motivation.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:00 am 
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But why would you add something that wasn't there ? That is something I just cannot understand. Technically this would be quite a challenge to do with crisp and clean results, so why bother ? It has nothing to do with the skill-level.

As for decks: I would sand/scrape them flush and if I feel that some sort of 3D-feature should be there, I would lightly scribe them; there are various tools for that purpose on the market. Fill this line with black paint/ink and wipe or scrape off the excess, then paint - the line will just shine through sufficiently to suggest the plank seams. I am talking here about small scales, say 1/350 or below.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:56 am 
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wefalck wrote:
But why would you add something that wasn't there ? That is something I just cannot understand. Technically this would be quite a challenge to do with crisp and clean results, so why bother ? It has nothing to do with the skill-level.


If you're talking about the builder that's one thing, but before the days of 5-axis CAD/CNC mold making it was a LOT easier to make raised details in a model than recessed.

Also, there are raised panels on airplanes and helicopters. Not many, but they exist. Past the leading edge by a certain amount the air gets turbulent and there's not as much need for laminar flow, so you also see raised rivets for cost-saving measures more often.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:04 am 
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Yes, I know, engraving recessed detail is a lot easier than the other way around, even on a CNC-machine. I thought I mentioned this already above as a rationale, but obviously not.

That shouldn't prevent anyone, however, from removing these false details from kits. There seems to be a lot of writing about this in other fora on car and aeroplane modelling. Somehow, the shipmodelling fraternity got used to exaggerated raised or deeply grooved deck-seams ...

There are various types of rivetts, of course, half-round, semi-countersunk, countersunk, etc. in use on ships. It depends on period and area of application which type would be used. On kits they often appear exaggerated, which also has something to do with the mold-making techniqus.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:28 pm 
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wefalck wrote:
That shouldn't prevent anyone, however, from removing these false details from kits.


If they want to and that's part of how they have fun. Not everyone wants to fix details, and some people LIKE the overdone details.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Also, there are raised panels on airplanes and helicopters. Not many, but they exist. Past the leading edge by a certain amount the air gets turbulent and there's not as much need for laminar flow, so you also see raised rivets for cost-saving measures more often.[/quote]

When I was a Navy aircraft mechanic in the 1960's, I was examining a Lockheed P-2 Neptune up close and observed that the fuselage was flush-riveted from the nose back to the trailing edge of the wing. Beyond that point, it was equipped with round-head rivets that protruded noticeably. I believe this was due to a lighter gauge sheet metal being used in the tail to help maintain the center of gravity (CG) within acceptable limits. Flush, or countersunk rivets require a thicker gauge metal for drilling and countersinking the holes that the rivets are fitted into.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
wefalck wrote:
That shouldn't prevent anyone, however, from removing these false details from kits.


If they want to and that's part of how they have fun. Not everyone wants to fix details, and some people LIKE the overdone details.



I agree 100%. Trying to shame modelers into removing engraved or raised details isn't the way to go. If asked by the modeler, then by all means advise him. Otherwise, let him be. Modelers over the years have done many things to enhance their work so as to have more eye-appeal to the viewer. I myself have added weathering effects, extra details, and other "improvements" to make the final product more interesting. Some of these changes were little out-of-scale but not to the point of being offensive (except maybe to a really anal perfectionist-type of personality.) Unless you're building for a customer with specific requirements, do whatever pleases you. It's your model.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:25 pm 
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OK, I am getting out of this discussion here, as the language seems to be deteriorating ...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:37 pm 
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wefalck wrote:
That shouldn't prevent anyone, however, from removing these false details from kits.


Wefalck, I'm going to try this one more time, because I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding and it's really nothing to be frustrated with.

I believe Mercurykid has sanded down the raised detail along his joints while making the joint less visible.
He is looking for advice to fix the small gaps in the raised lines he now has so that it all looks the same.
Replacing these small sections is much easier than sanding all the raised lines off the model and rescribing.
I do not think he is adding anything that wasn't there to begin with.

This is where different levels of skill, enjoyment, and motivation come into play.
You obviously pefer to try and make your models as close to the real thing as you can. I can relate, As I've gotten better in this hobby, I try and do better every time I build. I think it's admirable that you do this. Although, I have to admit, I sometimes buy easy kits just so that I can finish something quickly instead of years later!! :smallsmile:

However, when I was younger and had less skill and resources, I was still very proud of my work, even though I knew it wasn't as good as some others.
When someone would tell me what was wrong with my model (in their opinion) it was often hurtful and discouraging.
When someone offered suggestions on how do something a little better, it helped motivate me.

Some of us get a little protective of those who are seeking advice. Especially if the advice sounds like disapproval. I do not know if you intended it to sound that way, but unfortunately, it does and that provoked the responses you have received.
I hope you did not intend to sound discouraging and disapproving, typed responses can be very hard to understand the emotions behind them sometimes.
Everybody has their own opinions about things and yours is valid for what you do. Hopefully we can all continue being respectful.

Regards,
Darren

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:38 pm 
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wefalck wrote:
Well, I think there is only one criterion: how did it look like on the prototype ? Raised deck seams are an invention of the mold-maker of injection-molded kits, it is easy to engrave them; in reality these seams are either flush, or perhaps slightly depressed. On the hull of ships you would either see the raised strakes in rivetted ships or basically nothing in welded ships; some warships were also built with flush rivetted strakes above the waterline, if anything at all you would see slightly depressed seams between plates and strakes.

Similarly, raised aircraft panel lines are a nonsense, as all panels would be flush (for aerodynamic reasons) and if anything one would see a minimal gap between panels - just look out of the window of an aircraft.

So adding raised seams on ships are a raterh misguided attempt to create visual interest. Just have a look at pictures of your prototype.



Welded seams on ships can easily look like slightly uneven raised lines. Replicating the actual detail is probably less important than making it varied, and not uniform-looking all over the surface.

I think only overlapping panels and raised lines belong on ship hulls, but for the sake of variety, a minority of engraved lines (for vertical plate separation for instance) could be effective.

As for aircrafts, you simply don't know what you are talking about. Most of the "fixed" skin panels on large WWII non-fighters was made of overlapping 0.5 to 1 mm aluminium skin, creating a raised line on most non-removable panels. It has been known for years that engraved panel lines are just a convention to make seam filling "easier", and to help create dark lines with washes. For most non-removable panels, raised lines on large aircrafts are typically MORE accurate, with the possible exception of the B-26 and some of the B-29's machined edge flush fitting panels.

On the same aircraft, quite often no two panel lines look alike, neither do two rows of rivets.

One of the most realistic depiction of this is on the old Tamiya 1/48th Lancaster, whose lines are all different styles of raised lines, with different styles of rivets, despite being parallel next to one another on the fuselage. Aircraft kits have become more uniformly engraved in recent years, with rivets and raised plating depicted as engraved as well, resulting in a blander appearance.

Gaston


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:28 am 
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I must admit, that I don't know anything about aircraft, apart from what I see during my frequent use of them and perhaps reading the occassional building log. However, I do believe that I know quite a bit about shipbuilding :big_grin:

I didn't mean to be discouraging at all. As Darren said, things may not come across as intended, unless you write whole novels.

My point was not to give technical advice on how to do something - in this case to reconstitute certain molded features, but to go back one step and reflect on whether the detail in question really should be there.

I have been into modelling (well aircraft and tanks in my youth too) for more than 50 years now, with virtually no advice until I had the money to buy modelling magazines and the odd book back in the 1970s. What I noticed then and even more so today is that various conventions developed over time (and disappeared again). However, these conventions often have something to do with what people are used to see and perhaps may be pleasing them aesthetically (but aesthetics are largely the result of education and cultural context), but has nothing to do with the real thing. Some of these 'conventions' came to be because of the technical needs and expediencies of the mold-makers for injection-molded kits (as discussed above). While I appreciate these technical constraints, in our days of easy access to information and advice, there is no reason to not improve on these kits.

And I would encourage every fellow modeller to do so. And yes, there are some modellers, for whom the haptic experience of 'doing' something is more important than striving for historical accuracy - but why not slowly becoming a bit more ambitious and add value to the model ?

I appreciate that it can be discouraging, when you are asking for advice on how to do something and then being told to better not do it all, but to go down a different route for the sake of historical accuracy, for instance. Some people are rather resistant against advice and tend follow stubbornly their chosen route, which can be rather frustrating for those, who try to give advice with the intention of overall improvement ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:19 am 
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wefalck wrote:
While I appreciate these technical constraints, in our days of easy access to information and advice, there is no reason to not improve on these kits.


I am not one of these model builders - I like improving and making most of my builds more accurate. However, I have talked with a fair number of them and may be a little over protective towards them. There are plenty of reasons to not improve a model kit. I traded emails with a model builder who flipped the "9" on his CV-9 Essex kit upside down so that it was a 6 and called it Enterprise and he was *happy* with that. I've talked to builders who hate painting and are content to just build and not paint - one person even enjoyed building his models with photo etch and leaving them in bare plastic and photo etch. He just enjoyed the aesthetic of that look. I've run into many builders who have medical issues that cause loss of motor skills (stroke, palsy, etc.) and even just assembling a basic model is an accomplishment. Some people just have a lot going on in their life and having something that they can do that they don't have to stress and worry about is needed - just slapping together a kit without really any thought to it can be productive and relaxing.

We may see these as outliers, but they're generally pretty quiet in the face of "regular" model builders and their numbers are larger than it might appear.

The original poster is not that person. Clearly most of us here are not. At the end of the day, this is a hobby enjoyed by individuals and each person is going to have their own things that tickle their fancy and drive and motivate them. Given the competition for hobbies we should be aware of our attitudes and how that may push people away from ours.

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 Post subject: Raised Panel Lines....
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:59 pm 
First of all, I want to thank all who have contributed to this discussion thread, especially the very helpful suggestions about repairing my sanded panel lines.

To clarify, I am an experienced modeler (50 years plus now). My Lusitania model (the old Entex version) has panel lines that have been lost around seam areas where I have had to sand and fill the hull halves. This issue is pronounced around the bow and stern areas. I could forget about the lost lines, however when painted, there would be very flat/flush areas at the two points, which to my eye for detail would look awkward. My concern for a "clean" finish requires that I do something to eliminate the problem and repair the panel line connectivity.

I could sand all raised paneling throughout the entire ship model (all 22 inches), but it is visually appealing in most areas and I want to keep the detail. So I will try the baking soda/CA method using a test strip of plastic.. Failing that, I will try something else.

Thanks again to you all for your thread contributions.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:29 am 
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A little bit on the CA/Baking soda method. I came across it for the repair of resin model horse ears but it's also extensively used to fill space when repairing air bubbles in resin ship kits. I generally use a #11 knife tip to deposit small amounts and then tamp them down with the opposite end of the handle. Scrape off excess with a blade edge or something of the appropriate size to minimize sanding, and then pop a drop of thin CA in. You may need two or three, but be prepared for it to run alongside the tape and leave an edge, so don't go too crazy with it as the hardest part is going to be fairing it in with the original lines to make them look the same. It dries pretty hard, so it you're good with small sculpting it shouldn't take long at all. My biggest concern was always how far the CA would run up the tape as it was annoying to clean up what dried in the corner (from memory careful work with a #10 or #12 style blade was my favorite).

That also makes me think that something like Aves or Milliput and tape may work as well, if you're used to working with epoxy putties already.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Please post before and after pictures so that we can see how it turned out!!

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