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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:33 am 
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Something to think about. :thinking:
This is PE for a single 1/700 Jap battleship kit shown below. Crazy! By comparison, when you buy and look at large PE sets (PONTOS for example.) for 1/700 and 1/350 kits that have hundreds or thousands of pieces of PE, do you ever think: When did model building stop being fun and start becoming a "full time job"?
Granted, we model builders all want better detail for the various kits we build. But is too much detail, especially PE, overkill? Are we "drowning our kits" in too much detail? When I look at PE like this for a kit, it turns me off. I have bad eyesight and would never use all that PE. It would most likely go in the garbage or I'd give it to somebody else who could use it.


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File comment: Photo found in the "Eyes of the Fleet" FB group. PE set for a single 1/700 scale Jap battleship kit.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:52 am 
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If it's not fun, then don't do it. Simple! Model as much as you want, as little as want, in whatever makes it fun. No one's saying you have to use all that PE. For some, all that PE is fun.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:00 am 
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Timmy C wrote:
If it's not fun, then don't do it. Simple! Model as much as you want, as little as want, in whatever makes it fun. No one's saying you have to use all that PE. For some, all that PE is fun.

Exactly. Build what you want, how you want it, and keep it fun.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:38 am 
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Buy generic railings and radars and you're 90% of what we look at and for.

The problem is that we lose site of what we find fun and let other people or companies who are marketing a product define what we think fun should be. A lot of model building is a dream - you're not buying a finished product but a dream of what it could be. It's easy in those circumstances to feel "I *need* this to make the model look good and forget that the true statement is "I want this hobby to be fun." Don't build for others - build for yourself. It's also incredibly liberating to put something you built FOR YOURSELF on a contest table. Eff' 'em if they don't like it - it's your model.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Hmm call me stupid, but that is the way I like it :woo_hoo:

You can count the plastic parts from the original kit on one hand here :big_grin:

Image

Greetings Christian

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1/700 Combrig IJN Heien and Takao 1904
1/700 ICM SMS König 1916
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1/700 Fujimi IJN Shokaku 1941
1/700 Fujimi IJN Nagato 1941
1/700 Aoshima IJN Kagero 1941
1/700 Flyhawk HMS Prince of Wales 12/1941


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:21 pm 
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When did ship modeling stop being fun?

Easy. A hobby stops being fun when you decide it's no longer fun. If adding ten pounds of brass isn't your thing, don't do it. If scratching individual stanchions for deck railing isn't your thing, don't do it. If "what ifs" with a ton of both of these isn't your flavor, don't do it. There's nothing wrong with OOB building, or choosing to go light on PE. Hell, no one should tell you you're wrong when you choose to not massively rebuild the hull of a $400 kit.

tl;dr? If it's not fun, don't do it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Tens of thousands PE and scratch build pieces? I call that fun! :big_grin:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:06 pm 
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To use my rationale for weaning myself off things I once enjoyed: it stops being fun when it starts feeling like it's a job instead of a hobby. There are a handful of projects I'll expend Pontos-level effort on, but they are few in number.

Over the last couple weeks I built a Spitfire kit someone had given me, and it was a limited run kit with most of the interior replaced with intricate photo-etch. I thought it might be a nice diversion (I like Spitfires okay but they're kind of outside my usual realm), but by the end it felt like work and I finished it mainly because it had been a gift kit and I didn't want it to defeat me. It's not the worst model I've ever built but it was a lot of effort in ways that didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped, and all for a lot of details that most viewers would miss anyway and that others would need to really look to see. It reminded me that as much as we love details and photo-etch, they also increase the chances of messing things up, and sometimes a simpler approach is not only easier on the builder, but increases the opportunities to achieve more artistry with less material. But, again, we modelers are a diverse lot and one modeler's agony can easily be another's fun afternoon.

To use the words of the much-missed Al Superczynski: build what YOU want, the way YOU want, and above all have fun.

Jodie Peeler


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Agree, if you're not having fun then you're doing it wrong. That varies for different people - some love digging into the photos, history, and research of every square inch with scratched and metal parts. If that's fun, then they nailed it.

I see where you're coming from though, between free time , patience, and cost I build mostly out of box now. It makes me happy. PE only frustrates me but I can thoroughly enjoy seeing a model finished to the nines with it...I just don't want to do it myself lol.

Kyle

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm 
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To me, my ship is a whole bunch of small models, each one separate and detailed as much as I can manage. That way, it doesn't become overwhelming and cease to be fun. To me, the fun in models is the building, but when it gets to be tiring or problematic, I put it down and go do something else. And, it it doesn't turn out the way you want, just remember that when looking at the model from a few feet away, the overall effect will completely overshadow your little goofs on this or that individual part.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:09 am 
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The "fun" went out of it when my doctors got hysterical about the medications I was prescribed, and stopped.

Making it impossible for me to continue building.... Or doing anything, for that matter.

So, it isn’t that the fun went out of modeling. It is that life has become nothing but pain.

I really want to be able to return to the few models I have begun (and are very nearly finished). But that isn’t likely to happen at this point.

MB

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HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:46 am 
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As with other replies, we all find something different in what we consider fun. I built wooden ship models for many years and recently returned to plastic purely because of all the PE and other details now which allow much finer detail and thus scale accuracy and realism. Plus it's opened up more interesting subjects with resin/PE kit offerings.

So I love an evening with my 'hold and fold' and constructing tiny mast cages, ammo boxes and the like. I joke that the plastic kit is just a place to put all my PE. Certainly takes a lot longer to finish a model than it used to though - and I find removing my glasses or having a magnifier is something I'm getting used to!

On the flip side, I do 1/72 and 1/350 - I figure modelers who do 1/700 PE to be mad :-)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:47 am 
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For me the definition of a hobby is something:
- I enjoy doing
- I want to start doing of my own free will and can choose when to stop
- I do not answer to other people while doing it
- the results or anything I produce are not subject to judgment by anyone but myself

Huge detail sets can be tempting and I too like looking at other builds that use them. But I've started a couple of over-ambitious projects and I know from the point of view of my enjoyment it isn't worth it. On the other hand, I enjoy the result of some PE and other aftermarket accessories some of the time and I use it depending on other factors. I usually judge this by amount of gain per extra effort (a little radar set or lattice mast goes a very long way), and total project complexity.

For example, I did build a 1/700 Atago using almost all of the extensive Flyhawk upgrade set, because I wanted to, and since IJN ships are mono-colour including steel decks. So I accepted front-loading the work into the PE because I didn't have to stress over build/paint order and most of the painting was a 5-minute rattle-can job at the end. Because it was a "once in a blue moon" type project I enjoyed it, but I would not do it regularly. And I would not remotely consider getting bogged down in that amount of PE on a USN ship in dazzle camouflage.

So I'm always compromising in my projects to get the most out of what I enjoy. If sometimes that means accepting a lower level of detail somewhere so I can complete a ship in a pleasantly timely and stress-free manner, so be it! Other times my wishes steer me down a path of PE but now I know my limits in advance and a balance. I make the decision of what's good enough and then I'm happy with it, that's the point.

I have definitely built ships in the past where I spent long and not always enjoyable hours loading them with PE, and I ended up building it badly through impatience or cutting corners elsewhere. So they don't actually look as good as some of my simpler but "cleaner" projects. Then what's the point in a ship build that either makes me sad because I've lost motivation to finish it, or makes me sad because I aimed too high and finished it badly?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:52 am 
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PetrolGator wrote:
When did ship modeling stop being fun?

Easy. A hobby stops being fun when you decide it's no longer fun. If adding ten pounds of brass isn't your thing, don't do it. If scratching individual stanchions for deck railing isn't your thing, don't do it. If "what ifs" with a ton of both of these isn't your flavor, don't do it. There's nothing wrong with OOB building, or choosing to go light on PE. Hell, no one should tell you you're wrong when you choose to not massively rebuild the hull of a $400 kit.

tl;dr? If it's not fun, don't do it.


Pretty much this. I won't tell anyone they are crazy or wrong about how they approach modelling. I've even seen people moaning about Flyhawk kits having too many details.

If you don't like it, don't buy it but please don't assume you speak for everyone because if some people didn't enjoy it there wouldn't be any sales of this stuff.

It's no different from previous older generations bemoaning the emergence of fancy over-detailed kits and the death of the joy of hacking a hull out of a lump of wood.

Do whatever you want. Nobody cares what you do and don't like doing. You don't need to appeal for allies in disliking detailed accessories for your models. If you're happy that's all that matters and there is nothing more to discuss.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:51 am 
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For me, ship modeling stopped being "fun" when kits became a restricted choice between two esoteric scales, by and large, 1:700 or 1:350. Yes, there are a lot of different scales still "out there", but if a kit builder wants a wide range of subjects in an homogenous, alternative scale, and is unable or unwilling to scratch-build, that hobbyist is stuck. I no longer do it for "fun", but for therapeutic and historical interests.


As to the trend of increasing parts count in many latter-day kits, I regard it as a substitute for both, poor research and justification for increased pricing. It was a whole lot more fun, in the days of my youth, to add quality to a low-cost kit by correcting, modifying, and improving it to a higher standard than was achievable with just the parts supplied in the box. Today's kits seem to have taken that away by improving the basics by leaps and bounds, but the trade-off is that one follows complex instructions and spends more time on a project without gaining knowledge of what a "fiddly" part represents and/or its real-life function on the actual subject (i.e., research).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:57 am 
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ch hoeltge wrote:
Hmm call me stupid, but that is the way I like it :woo_hoo:

You can count the plastic parts from the original kit on one hand here :big_grin:

Greetings Christian



I hope the cost of the kit didn't negate too much of your investment in the project...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:28 am 
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If Christian is enjoying himself more doing this than he would scratch building a hull then it would seem a good use of his own money regardless how many bits of plastic stay in their box :)

Furthermore, some people consider the kit the only thing that should cost money and anything else is a grudge. Others like working with the metal parts and may consider the big detail set the thing they really want and the plastic kit simply a necessary accessory purchase.

Not unlike building a race or rally car. You know you need to waste money buying a full car but fully intend to strip out the interior, jelly suspension parts, tiny brakes, etc etc etc and toss them in a skip because what you want to build is a racing car.

In that respect, I wanted to build Hood using Pontos' fabulously researched set. Buying the Trumpeter kit was the additional purchase but one I was happy to accept because I want to use the Pontos stuff.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:27 am 
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Ah... dont buy PE sets like this. Problem solved. And if you say "but I want detail" then may I suggest you research manufacturers and buy those kits that are well detailed in plastic and just add railings or smth.

The thing with PE is that its like most of it is optional. I mean I never build ammo lockers out of PE, what a waste of time (for me!). I also dont always do hose reels. Yeah they look nice but I dont care about that. But I will drill out some port holes, I will add some canvas covers, I will redo the masts. Its all optional. To my eye some things are pointlessly small and flimsy, like PE boat davits on my Hood are bending I swear every time I look at them. But other stuff are a must - like masts, which to me are first things that break and are support for all the damn rigging. My masts on hood are metal and I dropped one into a box of tools, closed said box, forgot about it, and in 2 months I realized what I did, recovered the mast, unbent couple starfish corners and off it went again. To me PE is about a match of rigidity, longevity, and accuracy. If it is all of the above, Im doing it. I dont also like these full PE decks and superstructures - I dont like to glue everything with CA glue. So there you go, figure out your approach. Dont bend 48 AA guns in PE, of course, if you hate it and have better use of your time. :)

PE is a funny thing. Noone ever says "it should have less PE".

Also, companies who make these sets, to them its a one time sunk cost, and few sheets of brass - incrementally very little dollar impact. But they can claim it is most accurate set. Just throw away the rest into spare box and recyle if needed!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:54 am 
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When ship modeling stops being fun I put it all away and do something else for a while, kinda like what I've done for the past couple of years... :wave_1:

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Current Project: 1/200 HMS Hood


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:21 am 
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The one other thing I will add is that sometimes folks will make it stop being fun by telling somebody "you're doing it wrong" or "you are wrong for doing that" or "you shouldn't use that product" or whatever - issuing reprimands and judgments instead of gentle suggestions and hints. It's one thing if it's an obviously ill-advised thing, like somebody trying to splice their finger into the power cord of their airbrush compressor, or trying to assemble a plastic kit with a TIG welder. But asking somebody "why did you use THAT kit?" or saying "that method's no good" or "you've got to be out of your mind if you use that aftermarket set" does little but make a prospective ally feel like they have no business in the hobby. The fun goes because what's the point if you feel like you're wrong no matter what you try?

I've faced some of that before, and if that made me, who's only been in this hobby most of my life, want to suggest to the critics some places they could visit, some methods for getting there, and some interesting activities in which they could engage along the way...then what's that going to do to someone who's just starting out, or trying something new, or who otherwise needs a pat on the shoulder and encouragement to keep on going?

Everybody builds a model their own way. I have seen modelers who plow right through a kit but are happy as can be with the finished product. I've seen modelers who take decades to finish a model. We all have our own building styles, and if we're wise about how we approach the hobby (not to mention life itself), we always keep the mindset of an apprentice, always learning something new about what we do. And if we listen really closely, maybe we'll learn something new about ourselves, too.

Jodie Peeler


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