The Ship Model Forum

I’m working on a 1/350th Kagero Japanese destroyer and came across these awesome upgrades from Five-Star:



On which exterior bulkheads should I mount them? I haven’t had much luck finding photos and haven’t found them on any plans. Would they perhaps be mounted near the fire mains?





Some of these mains are visible in the well-known 1942 photos of Shiranui in drydock, and they are also depicted in The Japanese Destroyer Kagero book by Valdemar Góralski, Kagero Publishing (ISBN 978-83-62878-85-7) ...but no sign of the fire hose racks. Anyway, where should I mount these fire hose racks on my model?

Tiny little things. Thanks!

Hi, Tim -

Continuing on from the SN posting, I've done some searching through my references and I have some mixed comments about both the hose racks and the fire mains. It wasn't an exhaustive search, but I still have some opinions.

First, about the racks themselves. Though Five Star calls them firefighting hoses/racks, I'm not totally convinced that they are. Below is the photo of Tone's forecastle in front of the bridge. Something that looks very much like these objects is mounted on the bulkhead under and to the left of the access ladder. BUT, the crewmen on the deck appear to be involved in a firefighting drill (they are carried or rolling out a flattened hose) and they are not near those objects. Nor do I see an uncovered water main. Plus, hoses tend to be flexible and rolled when not in use. The leading sailor is holding an object which might be a long nozzle, but I'm not sure.

These "racks" are also very difficult to find. The Takaos seem to have had very long versions of these objects placed on the bulkheads up forward on the 01 deck, aft of the large cowl vents of the bridge face and semi-hidden behind the 9m cutters that sit up forward. I found what may be a similarly large "rack on Suzuya. I will say I can find no trace of these racks on any of the IJN DDs.

Which brings me to the water mains. Clearly, one has been identified in the Shiranui deckhouse photo, and I found the one way forward on the forecastle in a post-war, forecastle photo of Yukikaze looking aft. But there is a complete lack of photo or plan evidence for the other locations as indicated by Goralski in that Kagero book. Nor have I found any in other classes. Yet.

So, I do wonder how he arrived at those locations. I would love to know.

My two cents. Dan

Thanks Dan, I appreciate your insights!

Much as I like Five Star's delicate "fire hose rack" parts, I may end up not using them on the Kagero as there seems to be no evidence that they were ever mounted aboard IJN DDs. Bummer!

As for the water mains, I agree, the only independent evidence is for the fore and aft locations. I too would love to know how Mr. Goralski determined the rest of their sites for his plans! Anyway, the fore and aft mains can definitely be placed with confidence.



I haven't decided about the 'midships locations. Certainly there must have been mains there somewhere, but Goralski's plans are so far the only clue as to exactly where. Unless better evidence appears, I'll probably place them as he suggests. His research is generally quite good, and perhaps he has dug up information that has eluded me. Anyway, I can always move them if they turn out to be wrong...!

Going over my references a minute ago I think I found one of the 'midships water mains on the Shiranui which corresponds to one of Mr. Goralski's indicated locations.

Dan, Tim,

I am no "expert" on warships of the IJN but I think that I can identify the "rack" in Tim's post of 27 Feb. It is probably a rack stowage for a removable derrick: a bit exposed to blast damage though but maybe the Japanese were prepared to accept that. It might just be one for a set of "armoured" hoses but that is unlikely in my opinion: they would be stowed below.

Why the former? Try to find a picture of the after superstructure of SMS HINDENBURG. You will see similar "racks" on the lower part of the after superstructure forward of "D" main armament mounting where they should (?) be clear of blast and little chance of be dislodged by heavy seas. Those are definitely for removable derricks.

Concerning stowages of fire-fighting hoses elsewhere. One might find the cradles or baskets for them behind a breakwater but they are unlikely to have been near hydrants on the upper deck anywhere else as they would be exposed to blast and weather damage there. In that case they are likely to be fixed to the structure just inside a screen door.

Hope this helps.

81542, I appreciate your thoughts about the fittings being a collapsible derrick - a very reasonable possibility! Nevertheless, I believe that they were indeed firefighting equipment as Five Star indicates. We know that the IJN employed portable foam equipment to be used with portable pumps or fire main outlets, and the ends of the Five Star parts resemble the end connectors still found on such fittings today. I believe they were low expansion firefighting foam generators like this modern unit:



The IJN very likely used a version of these on their destroyers ...but as to whether they were ever stowed on exterior bulkheads, I’d love to find evidence!

Tim,

Thanks for acknowledging my post. I can offer nothing more save to say that as they have only been seen onboard heavy cruisers that they were fittings specific to those ships: possibly associated with fighting fires involving the aircraft arrangements at a distance. I would be interested to know though. The items do seen rather over the top as regards length though

81542 - A very interesting thought, though I should point out that while the IJN did use collasipble type derricks, they were more typically considered folding, and tucked in alongside the hull. But that's more typical for ships larger than a DD. The DDs do have fold-down davits at the stern for handling depth-charges and boat booms, and the like. Still, we can't completely rule it out.

Tim - you've highlighted another interesting possible location. It does occur to me that some of Mr. Goralski's fire main locations are more likely related to refueling ports - see pic below.

Also, referring back to fire extinguishers offered by FS as mentioned over on SN - while these, too, have some likely locations onboard, it's worth noting that most plans showing something else in similar wire baskets refer to them as bumpers. You know, for throwing over the side to keep vessels apart. I've seen notations placing them next to the 25mm AA bandstand supports to either side of funnel #2, and also at the aft end of the aft deckhouse.

Dan, you are right - some of what I thought Mr. Góralski drew as water mains might well have been refueling ports. Thanks for the pic!









Those Five Star fire extinguishers are a bit of a puzzle - I too have seen these labeled as "fenders" in the Miyukikai plans and depicted as what look like fenders in Mr. Góralski's beautiful 3D renderings as well. To my eye they do appear rather bulky to be portable fire extinguishers but about right for fenders, and the locations would be right for stowed fenders too. So who knows?

On the plus side, whether fire extinguishers or fenders they look about the same in 1/350, so I'll still use them on my model - whatever they were!

I'm going to get some myself. Great suggestion.