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 Post subject: Fletcher class
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:53 pm 
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Bob,
I totally agree with you on the pre-war classes. They carried the ball, so to speak, until the rest of the country had recovered and was ready to fight, and fought some horrific fights. I wish there was enough interest in them to justify the profitable production of the various classes in injection molded plastic. As I have told you, I am impressed with your 3D printed pieces, and will be watching your progress should you decide to pursue any of the other classes.

I do have a suggestion for a much needed conversion part for the Tamiya 350 scale Fletchers. The kit is of course, very basic, and comes with the aft deckhouse and the high gun tubs for the early boats fitted with the 1.1" anti-aircraft guns. Many of these deckhouses were cut down and converted to 40mm gun mounts in either a "D" shaped tub or a tear drop shaped tub. The "D" can be found in the "Sullivans" kit or the resin conversion set if you can find one. The tear drop shaped tub has NEVER been produced as a conversion piece and would be, I feel, very popular among modelers. The plans have been posted in the Fletcher threads, so are available. I just finished such a hand made conversion. A 3D printed scale piece would have been a friggin' delight! Just a suggestion.

Rick
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:11 pm 
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Could you point me toward some pics or plans? I was looking through the Calling All Fletcher Fan thread, but I didn't see what you were referencing. I have to admit, I'm not very well-versed in the many Fletcher-class variations. No promises, but I'll take a look.

Thanks,

Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:28 pm 
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Shortcut ...

The first image shows the general arrangement ... The "Teardrop" shape that surounds the twin 40-mm mount and director pedestal

The second through fourth image shows the construction details for the aft deckhouse and the bulwarks around the 40-mm mount and director first installed on the Round-Bridge FLETCHERS

The fifth and sixth images show much the same design, except with refinements for the Square-Bridge FLETCHERS, particularly changes to the director pedestal

You would actually only need to make the "Tub" (I think with a thin bottom is best) and director pedestal that can be mounted on the small aft deckhouse, since most kits already have the deckhouse.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Last edited by Rick E Davis on Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:04 am 
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Wow, you guys really want that part! Okay, I'll take a look at it and see if my wine soaked mind can make sense of it.

Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:10 am 
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PS. Mr. Davis, what file format are those images in? My Windoze PC says they're not valid bitmaps. I suspect its an issue on my end, but if I know the file format (which my PC for some reason cannot discern. Argh! Windoze!!!) maybe I can work around it.

Thanks,

Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:40 am 
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Got it. The file extension is, ".jpg.html," oddly enough. I just saved them as JPGs under another file name.

Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:09 am 
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Hmmm.... Now, the workaround isn't working. Did I mention I hate Windoze?

Anyway, here's a VERY rough draft. I'm not sure its printable given the thinness of the splinter shielding. Any ideas on the dimensions? When I open the one image I was able to save, it comes out all blurry at very low resolution so I can't tell the dimension callouts.

Thanks!

Bob


Image

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:07 am 
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It looks like something really ugly happened in the "Take a Screen Shot" from the Bath Iron Works FLETCHER Class Engineering Drawings DVD to uploading on Photobucket to then uploading to Modelwarships ... all the dimensions went "BLUR".

I'm trying loading a small image direct. But here are the dimensions; the big radius is 7-ft (standard working circle for twin 40-mm guns was 14-ft) centered at Frame 154.5, the minor radius is 3-ft, 10-in, centered 10.5-in aft of Frame 148. Height of Bulwark is shown as 3-ft, 3-in. On FLETCHERS, the Frame spacing is 21-in.

If it helps any in "thickness", notice the stiffeners and there would be clips for ready-use ammo.

Attached are some "typical" views of the aft twin 40-mm gun mount "tub". Almost all FLETCHERS after the first dozen or so units delivered had this lowered tub with this "tear-drop" shape. The "D-shape" tub was a MINY refinement. Many of the FLETCHERS that they worked on had their tubs altered to this style. It wasn't made as a "standard", but because many of the really good yard views of FLETCHERS were taken at MINY, I think many "assume" that the D-shape was typical. However, most FLETCHERS retained the Tear-Drop shape and as I said were completed with it.

Typical views of FLETCHERS with the Tear-Drop "Tub"
Image

Image

As a reference, a close-up view of a D-Shaped MINY "Tub"
Image

Below is a better drawing with dimensions visible and a close-up view of a Post-WWII FLETCHER with a Tear-Drop "Tub" showing the typical Ready-Use ammo clip stowage along the inside of the bulwark wall. Also, all these views give you an idea that the Director Platform and Pedestal varied a lot during the war. The Mk 49 director was the intended director for the 40-mm guns, but Mk-51 directors ended up being the standard.


Attachments:
AftDechouseTubDim.jpg
AftDechouseTubDim.jpg [ 191.76 KiB | Viewed 2394 times ]
DD472AftDeckhouseTub.jpg
DD472AftDeckhouseTub.jpg [ 187.6 KiB | Viewed 2394 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Due to the firewall here at work I can only see the last photo of Guest and one drawing. I’ll check more at home tonight. Interesting that in Guest, the teardrop tub appears inset into the deckhouse. My reading of the plans indicates that at least during wartime, the tub simply sat atop the deckhouse. Is that interpretation correct?
Thanks!
Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:15 pm 
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There is a short "bulwark" around the edge of the deckhouse, where the tub doesn't overhang the small deckhouse, of about a foot in height. I don't know what the intent was for the space enclosed that way, but on quite a few FLETCHERS it was used for floater nets or stowage for other things like canvas covers. You will note that the ladder providing access to the "40-mm gun mount and "tub" goes up to that space and then rails are mounted on the bulwark around the gun to get over the "wall". I have seen some destroyers where the crew cut an opening in the bulwark where the ladder is located. Not authorized, but handy.

If you make a tub, I wouldn't worry about trying to make that short bulwark wall, unless you decide to do the complete aft deckhouse and "gun tub" together.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:17 pm 
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Thanks, the bulwark info clears up a lot!

Here's another rough draft of the tear drop tub scaled to 1/350th (I think). The tub is about 21mm long fore to aft. Before I take this any further, would anyone care to check the size and scaling before I lock things down and start adding the little details?

Thanks!

Bob

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:12 pm 
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PS. The splinter shielding is 0.3 mm and Shapeways says its printable! Wow, I wouldn't have expected that, and the stiffeners and such will hopefully add to its printability.

The tub is also about 13.6 mm in diameter at the widest point of the after circle.

Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:25 pm 
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Okay, just got done ordering some Floating Drydock plans. The Bagley is a go. Please don't ask me for updates or ETAs. This will likely take well over a year, and I have a job and real world stuff to deal with. Plus cats, HEMA, physical therapy, wine tasting, model building, authoring some teaching outlines, more wine tasting, more HEMA, idiot administrators at the school I teach at, psychotic parents, doped up students, dreaming of Maui, cats, etc., etc., etc., to get in the way. But, I will start work on it soon. If nothing else, I'll do the hull and superstructure and let the builder source the other stuff, as in a craftsman's kit. I'll likely start a separate thread in a number of months when I have something to share. If its too expensive for folks to buy, and 3D printing is admittedly pricy, then no worries and no guilt - I'll have a nice Bagley for myself.

By the way, were I to get really nuts and do the hull plating, and I'm not promising that I will, is there a shell expansion diagram floating around out there?

Many thanks,

Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:31 am 
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Never mind... I saw it (missed a page).

Accidental post.

Are you planning to 3D print this when finished?

MB

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HIJMS Nagara
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HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:24 am 
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The Sims conversion or the Fletcher gun tub? Both are yes. I just need someone to doublecheck my dimensions on the gun tub before I go any further. I started adding internal supports and reinforcements to match photos as best I could, but then figured that would be a waste of time if the scaling was all wrong and I had to start all over again.

The Bagley or Benham (I'm now waffling on which one to do) will get done sometime and 3D printed. As for when, that's an open question. With work and family issues, I can't predict when. I tend to go weeks without doing any CAD work and then I'll CAD like a madman for a week and blow several projects out the door at once. Its just how I tend to operate, so the answer to this one is yes, but no predictions or estimates on an ETA. It could be a year or so out.

Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:15 am 
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aptivaboy wrote:
The Sims conversion or the Fletcher gun tub? Both are yes. I just need someone to doublecheck my dimensions on the gun tub before I go any further. I started adding internal supports and reinforcements to match photos as best I could, but then figured that would be a waste of time if the scaling was all wrong and I had to start all over again.

The Bagley or Benham (I'm now waffling on which one to do) will get done sometime and 3D printed. As for when, that's an open question. With work and family issues, I can't predict when. I tend to go weeks without doing any CAD work and then I'll CAD like a madman for a week and blow several projects out the door at once. Its just how I tend to operate, so the answer to this one is yes, but no predictions or estimates on an ETA. It could be a year or so out.

Bob


Uhm.... Since it is 3D, I don't suppose "scale" is an issue (what scale it gets printed in), as the printing method is the only constraint there.

I am currently working on a Benham stack.

It seems to be the only part of the Midship Model's kit that requires much real work. I have ViaCAD, and occasionally AutoCAD to work with as my "hard CAD" programs.

But often it is simpler to work in a polygonal modeling program, and then just subdivide until the resolution is good enough to print. Often compound curves are a beach to do in surface modeling programs.

Do you have blueprints you are going to work from for the Bagley/Benham?

And.... I know what you mean about work.

I have several 3D modeling projects I am doing at the moment for which I haven't done anything in weeks (stressed out over having to sue a doctor), but I often go a week without working, and then spend four days straight, without sleep, working on a project.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:11 am 
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I use Moment of Inspiration, a nice simple NURBs based program for compound curves and the like. Most of the work is done in Alibre/Geomagic Design, which is sort of like Solidworks "lite" when it isn't crashing. MOI can do some wonderful lofting, like the funnel base that I think you're looking at for the prewar DDs, so I do most of the work in Geomagic and then port to MOI for lofting.

The tub(s) will be for the Tamiya Fletcher, so its in 1/350th, I hope. I hope I got the dimensions and scaling correct. I took the plans supplied by Mr. Davis, drew the tub, converted to 1-1 scale, then took it down to 1/350th; lots of scaling issues, lots of potential for error.

I have the Profile Morskie plans for the Bagley, but they're pretty basic and I've found that their plans are subject to small errors and issues, so I use them for basic shapes but not the little details. I'll be ordering some plans from the Floating Drydock. The order form the other night apparently didn't go through, my PC having a mini meltdown just as I hit "submit." They have the hull lines for most prewar classes and then its a matter of finding the right master plan for everything above water.

Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:44 pm 
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Bob,

There are two considerations about sizing a Tear-Drop Shaped "tub" for FLETCHER kits. What the actual dimensions were on REAL ships and how true to scale are the kit manufacture's, in this case to the mating parts. Photo Etch makers have had to deal with the kits as they are, not as they SHOULD BE.

With that in mind I have attached a cropped view of the Aft 40-mm Tub on the small deckhouse on the 01 level aft deckhouse to illustrate how it mates.

The deckhouse was built to be roughly 16-ft wide, 8-ft off-centerline. The "standard" tub didn't reach the full width of the sides. The Mare Island "D-Shape" tub followed the outside shape (walls) of the small deckhouse.

How then I'm "old-fashion" and use to dealing in "Feet and Inches" which works well with the original plans, than Metric. When I convert your widest diameter of the tub of 13.6-mm, to inches/feet from 1/350 scale I come up with 0.535-in which equals 15.62-ft. (assuming 25.4-mm to 1-inch). The
official" dimension to the "Outside" of the bulwark was a 7-ft radius which means that the actual max width should be 14-ft, which if I have done my calculations right should be 12.2-mm. My calculations could be off, but check yours also. Even if the 7-ft radius is a to the "inside" of the bulwark dimension, the wall thickness shouldn't be that thick.

The stiffeners for the bulwark are spaced according to the original drawings at "about 2-ft, 1.5-in" apart and are 3-in deep from the bulwark wall The ready-use clip holders, two of them in two rows, fit between these stiffeners. See the below images.

How then to the "what size" did the 1/350 scale FLETCHER Class Kit Makers, Tamiya and Trumpeter, make the deckhouse question. I got out my calipers and measured the deckhouses that these "Tear-Drop" tubs would fit on and they are both pretty close to true scale, being about 16.5-ft wide.

The Images I added at the bottom show; (a) a typical Tear-Drop shaped tub with the canvas covers over the ready-use clip holders, (b) a typical Tear-Drop tub without the canvas cover, (c) just for reference a D-Shaped Tub showing the clip holder arrangement was about the same. A 40-mm round clip would fit into each of these clip holders. I tried to locate a drawing of the clip holders, but can't find one. However the last image shows a couple of these holders with four 40-mm rounds in them.


Attachments:
zDD445ClassAftDeckhousex1.lr.jpg
zDD445ClassAftDeckhousex1.lr.jpg [ 193.19 KiB | Viewed 2317 times ]
zDD514AftGunTubx1-24Jul43.jpg
zDD514AftGunTubx1-24Jul43.jpg [ 140.47 KiB | Viewed 2317 times ]
zDD518AftGunTub-Tear-11Jan43.jpg
zDD518AftGunTub-Tear-11Jan43.jpg [ 170.96 KiB | Viewed 2317 times ]
zDD516AftGunTub-D-11Dec44.jpg
zDD516AftGunTub-D-11Dec44.jpg [ 183.56 KiB | Viewed 2317 times ]
ClipHoldersWithRounds.jpg
ClipHoldersWithRounds.jpg [ 171.19 KiB | Viewed 2317 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:53 pm 
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Awesome. Seriously, what we do without you? I say that with all seriousness and respect.

I may not be able to do empty ready service clips. Printing abilities just aren't there jet. It may be possible to do a clip with 40mm rounds in it which could then be booleaned or merged into the inner splinter shielding. I'm not sure if the human eye would be able to tell what it was meant to represent at this scale, but its worth a try to see if its printable.

For the tear dropped tub, is there a consensus on whether or not it should have a hole in it to mount the 40mm Bofors? Or, just leave it off and let the modeler center and attach the gun mount manually? The tub's deck is currently 0.4 mm thin, so I'm reluctant to start poking holes in it; the deck there is so thin that there wouldn't be much for the glue to find purchase, anyway. The modeler might be better off attaching the tub, letting the glue dry, and then drilling a mounting hole themselves through the tub and deckhouse.

I'll break the Tamiya Fletcher out of the closet and match the blueprint to the after deckhouse tonight and test it out.

By the way, Mr. Davis, was the tear drop shaped tub on the fantail the same as the one we're talking about atop the deckhouse? They certainly look very similar shapewise, the little kink that a few had notwithstanding.

Thank you again,

Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:14 pm 
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I suppose if one requested it, that you could print these same components off in 1/700 scale?

I only do 1/700.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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