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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:03 pm 
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Hello all,
I have got into 3D designing several months earlier using 123D software Steve@ Model Monkey kindly advice me. My first designs were Lion Class Battleship turrets and superstructure for my own use in 1/350 scale. There's no problem with the turrets, but the measurement of the superstructure is a couple of millimeters too small from the actual measurement I drew in the software. But since I already have it printed and shipped here, I won't be designing and repurchasing a new correct one. Though I sure will redesign it to match the plans' measurements. 
I have tried printing an image of a 30 cm ruler in Microsoft Powerpoint, using the scale option to scale it to 30cm and printed it out. It matched perfectly with some of my rulers, but not all! Maybe Shapeways' measurement is a bit different from microsoft's? This is a big problem, as I am not sure if my rulers are standard or not (I bought one in the U.S and matches well with the ones bought in Bangkok.) If I were to design photo etch parts, especially the railings that run from bow to stern, the PE might measures out too short or too long!

Regarding the photo-etch designing, I have heard that others (EJ Foeth sent me an email, and Alain (username NOVA73) posted it in his thread of Dockyard and IJN Fuso at Nagasaki) use Illustrator programs, but I haven't yet so fully understand the process that I can do it on my own. It would be of infinite help if someone (who obviously can design PE) can post step by step pictures of how you do it here.

Thanks in advance!!  

Aop.

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On the way:
--1/350 Tamiya DKM Tirpitz Nov 1944

--1/350 scratch-build HMS Lion never built battleship (1938)

And our artworks!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:42 pm 
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One thing you have to be careful about is that some printers do not print accurate scale. I had a HP color laser printer that printed only 99.76% of the drawing size from CAD programs. I had to set a print scale of 1.0024 to get accurate sized prints. It doesn't seem like much but that is a 0.024 inch error in 10 inches (or 2.4 mm per meter), more than enough to cause problems.

I did this quite often from PCB layout programs to verify that PC boards would fit into custom designed enclosures. The printer was a piece of junk and went into the trash. I have a Samsung color laser that does print accurate scale.

I'm not sure I would trust Powerpoint to make accurate drawings.

Phil

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:13 am 
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There is a book on photo etching for marine models here:

https://www.specialinterestmodelbooks.c ... o-etching/

It is an early (2005) book on this subject and there are several used copies for sale on Abebooks. Brian King, the author, used TurboCAD to prepare drawings for etching.

I was impressed by his techniques for "half etching", that is etching half way through the brass to create fold lines, plank lines, and the illusion of millwork. His use of etching to craft tiny ships' boats with ribbed frameworks, seats, rudders, gunwales, oars etc, was remarkable. The book is now somewhat dated but it is full of photos and drawings and might be a place to start. Michael


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:39 am 
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DrPR wrote:
One thing you have to be careful about is that some printers do not print accurate scale....I'm not sure I would trust Powerpoint to make accurate drawings.

Phil

Concur. Powerpoint and the 2D printer are the likely culprits.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:13 am 
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Thanks all for replying!
DrPR wrote:
One thing you have to be careful about is that some printers do not print accurate scale. I had a HP color laser printer that printed only 99.76% of the drawing size from CAD programs. I had to set a print scale of 1.0024 to get accurate sized prints. It doesn't seem like much but that is a 0.024 inch error in 10 inches (or 2.4 mm per meter), more than enough to cause problems.

I did this quite often from PCB layout programs to verify that PC boards would fit into custom designed enclosures. The printer was a piece of junk and went into the trash. I have a Samsung color laser that does print accurate scale.

I'm not sure I would trust Powerpoint to make accurate drawings.

Phil

My printer is a Brother MFC-J3720 InkBenefit, which can print up to A3. I think it is not a crappy one, though I used to have older and cheaper ones, but never really had the idea of measuring the printed drawings.

Well for now I have nothing in mind, so Powerpoint would be my option.
mcg wrote:
There is a book on photo etching for marine models here:

https://www.specialinterestmodelbooks.c ... o-etching/

It is an early (2005) book on this subject and there are several used copies for sale on Abebooks. Brian King, the author, used TurboCAD to prepare drawings for etching.

I was impressed by his techniques for "half etching", that is etching half way through the brass to create fold lines, plank lines, and the illusion of millwork. His use of etching to craft tiny ships' boats with ribbed frameworks, seats, rudders, gunwales, oars etc, was remarkable. The book is now somewhat dated but it is full of photos and drawings and might be a place to start. Michael


Thanks for the info. I found it on Amazon at £2.79, a nice price!

@Steve, yes I guess Shapeways is accurate. Must be the 2d printers and microsoft...

Anyway it is very tiny difference in 1/350 scale, where ships rarely measure out over a meter, so I hope I would be fine.

Thanks all!
Aop.

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On the way:
--1/350 Tamiya DKM Tirpitz Nov 1944

--1/350 scratch-build HMS Lion never built battleship (1938)

And our artworks!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:06 pm 
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Hello,

May I direct you away from MS PowerPoint. MS PowerPoint was designed to bring together information of various types from a variety of differing sources with the goal of communicating information. It is ideal for instruction sheets but it is not a graphics program. If you are going to make your own PE then you would be best served by getting a graphics program with an interface you enjoy, many will let you try before you purchase. If you are going to use a PE manufacturer, then you need to use software compatible with that manufacturer. For example Hauler uses CorelDraw version 10. You may use CorelDraw or you can use Illustrator and then save as CorelDraw Ver 10. But you do have to comply with the PE manufacturers standard.

With 3D printing folk talk a lot about the z axis or how many micron thick the print layer is. They do not mention about the nozzle that is spraying in the x and y axis that actually creates the shape. So dependent on the printer and on the material you print with, accuracies can change as the nozzle properties change. You need to experiment by printing your designs to get what is right for you.

To learn PE you can start by measuring current PE as found in your kits. Look at how the designer laid out the PE, notice the flow as you build or the lack of flow. Look for how the parts are attached to the PE fret. Many PE manufacturers also have design tolerances that your PE must comply with to be successfully created. Work with your choice.

Good Luck, it is actually enjoyable to climb both of these learn curves.

Cheers,
George


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:34 pm 
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George Hargreaves wrote:
Hello,

May I direct you away from MS PowerPoint. MS PowerPoint was designed to bring together information of various types from a variety of differing sources with the goal of communicating information. It is ideal for instruction sheets but it is not a graphics program. If you are going to make your own PE then you would be best served by getting a graphics program with an interface you enjoy, many will let you try before you purchase. If you are going to use a PE manufacturer, then you need to use software compatible with that manufacturer. For example Hauler uses CorelDraw version 10. You may use CorelDraw or you can use Illustrator and then save as CorelDraw Ver 10. But you do have to comply with the PE manufacturers standard.

With 3D printing folk talk a lot about the z axis or how many micron thick the print layer is. They do not mention about the nozzle that is spraying in the x and y axis that actually creates the shape. So dependent on the printer and on the material you print with, accuracies can change as the nozzle properties change. You need to experiment by printing your designs to get what is right for you.

To learn PE you can start by measuring current PE as found in your kits. Look at how the designer laid out the PE, notice the flow as you build or the lack of flow. Look for how the parts are attached to the PE fret. Many PE manufacturers also have design tolerances that your PE must comply with to be successfully created. Work with your choice.

Good Luck, it is actually enjoyable to climb both of these learn curves.

Cheers,
George

Thank you for replying me. And thanks for pointing out the information. I was just afraid whether my rulers would be standard or not, but I wouldn't use Powerpoint for printing plans anymore. Maybe someone can recommend me a better free software for scaling/printing plans?

Regarding PE, I certainly notice the pattern of the sets I bought. The PE are also a bit thick in 1/350 just to be tolerant enough to withstand handling. I also know some 3D softwares, such as 123D design, but I heard from others that they only use 2d designing softwares, like Illustrator and so on. Evert-Jan Foeth already adviced me to send the designs to http://www.etchworks.eu for etching, so I won't be etching the parts myself.

Btw, EJ told me that I have to draw the lines in AutoCad or Illustrator, then color it in Illustrator to indicate different layers. What does that mean?

Thanks again!

Aop.

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On the way:
--1/350 Tamiya DKM Tirpitz Nov 1944

--1/350 scratch-build HMS Lion never built battleship (1938)

And our artworks!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:10 am 
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Aop,

I have made several photo etch designs myself, and that taught me a few things.

I use a program called DesignCAD 3D Max (not the same as the program "3D Max"). It costs $100 US, although it is often on sale for less.

https://www.turbocad.com/designcad/desi ... fgodfCwEsw

There is a 2D version that costs $50 US:

https://www.turbocad.com/designcad/desi ... fgodhPUFbg

It has a great user forum where you can find help. It is a complete CAD program and it does have a learning curve. But it is easier to use than other CAD programs I have worked with.

****

One thing to keep in mind is that the etching process doesn't cut straight through the metal like a saw blade does. As the etchant cuts into the metal between the photo resist it also cuts under the resist pattern, so a cross section of etch cut sides are not parallel - it is wider in the middle of the sheet. This is more apparent with thicker materials and not much of a problem with thinner materials. But, as a rule of thumb, the narrowest cut you can make reliably is about 1.2 times the thickness of the metal. Anything narrower than this may etch away completely. For really fine details you need to use thin materials.

For large pieces this will be unnoticeable, but if you try to etch fine gratings or screens they may not work. However, this is dependent upon the photo etch equipment and process, and some companies are very good. I have seen some very fine photoetched screens. Each company should have instructions for what you can and cannot do.

It isn't enough just to have a bunch of lines to show where the edges of the etch are to be. You have to fill in a solid color between the lines to indicate where the metal should be removed and where it should remain. The photo etch company can't read your mind so you have to show them. BUT, there are two methods of creating the photo resist on the metal - positive and negative. For the positive method you color the areas where the metal should remain, and for the negative method you fill in where the metal should be removed. You need to know which method the photo etch company wants.

The comment about colors and layers probably has to do with partial etching. Normally the same pattern is used on both sides of the material to protect the metal that is not to be etched. This also controls the undercutting. However, you may want to etch details into one side of the sheet only - such as fold grooves. For this you must supply two images - one for the top side with the fold grooves and one for the back side without the fold grooves. It is common to give each layer a different color to make it easy to give instructions how the job is to be done. You can also have fold grooves in different places on both sides.

Also, you are not limited to just two layers. I have seen jobs where thicker sheets have been etched several times to produce complex multi-level etches on one side, with things like rivets and such. I haven't tried it myself. For this you will need different colors for each layer and instruction how the layers are to be "stacked" for the job.

Phil

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:53 am 
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Hi Phil,
thanks for the info! The program is a bit pricey, huh! Anyway I'll get to that later. I just found an image here:
Image
So, if I understand correctly, the lightest shade of grey is not etched, the medium grey sections are etched halfway, and the black is completely etched through, creating openings. Is that correct?

Aop.

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On the way:
--1/350 Tamiya DKM Tirpitz Nov 1944

--1/350 scratch-build HMS Lion never built battleship (1938)

And our artworks!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:20 pm 
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I would agree with that. Check with the etching company to see how they want you to supply the information..

Phil

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