The Ship Model Forum

Dean,

Thet looks pretty good. I would add additional frames up forward where the hull curves - you can't have too many frames where the hull curves. Midships the frames are OK. The stern looks good.

The center element from keel up is the most important. It is all too easy to get a warped hull as you plank/plate the hull. The keel really needs to be strong.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

I agree with Phil; at least double the number of frames forward. Otherwise it looks great!

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

Thanks Phil and Devin, much appreciated.

OK, so double the frames forward, and what about mid-ship, do you think it would be better to add more frames there too? Maybe one each between the existing frames?

Dean

As Phil said, you want more frames forward and aft as that's where the curve is. The more lines on that curve, the smoother it'll be.

The frames amidships are fine as-is, no need to add any. Amidships all of the frames are the same, so it's essentially a straight shot, no curving at all.

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

Quick update, added some more forward frames. Let me know if you guys think that is enough or maybe a few more would be better.
Also, I'll adjust the spacing a bit on the final, then when everyone is satisfied with it, I'll dig into it more and put up an exploded view showing the notches and such. The green parts are there to show the flat sections of the covering that can be pre cut and laid into place.



Dean

Dean,

That looks good. The extra frames forward will ensure the hull surface will follow the correct lines. Midships you don't need any more.

I think you can use just the one longitudinal frame on the centerline - the transverse frames are enough to mold the hull shape. If you add the two extra longitudinals outboard the keel they will make the structure stronger, but they will complicate the assembly.

What do others think?

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Good point on the longitudinal supports or keels. While they definitely would help with stability, they would probably prove a lot of extra effort on the build.

I actually used a three keel setup on the Carondelet build I'm doing, but it was easier as the space between them was left empty for the paddlewheel cutout.

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

Thanks guys, it's really helpful to have your input on this.

What I can do is show an exploded assembly both ways, one with just the single keel longeron and one with the three, then once you see how each interlocks together you can decide which you like better, and we'll go with that. What do you think?

Dean

Yeah, that sounds good.

You mention them interlocking, and I see what look like tabs and slots in the drawing. That's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how it'll work out with styrene as those notches and tabs will have to be cut into the styrene to make use of them, but I like the idea of it.

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

Hmmmm, remember that laser-cutter thingy that Bernard Kempinski was using to build the Passaic for his railroad layout? I wonder how much one of those costs. Sounds darned usefull right about now!!

Owen

Owen,
You must have been reading my mind.

Devin,
having it Laser cut is what I was thinking you might consider for this, it's used all the time for RC aircraft and RC ships. If you were to have all the framing cut from say lite ply or basswood (lite ply is cheaper), you can still use the styrene to cover/sheet/plank it with. I've used it myself on my scratch-builds and the fit and ease of assembly just can't be matched compared to hand cut. For something like the Chickasaw, wood included, I would guess somewhere around $50-$70 depending on how much is cut. It's really not that hard to make cut-files for laser cutting, I could handle that without much effort and send them directly to the cutter, then you would get the parts mailed to you and your ready to assemble. Big time saver on a build if you ask me. Just a thought...

Dean

Dean,

Interesting. Do you know if they can cut styrene as well as wood? I have a hang-up with using wood and plastic so close together in a build like this (which is one reason why I won't use the new cool wooden decks that everyone raves about for 1/350th scale ships).

Still, doing it in wood could be a cool experiment, I'll just have to figure the best way to work it. In 1/200, where I plan on packing the area between the frames with epoxy putty and sanding it to shape, it might not be bad at all.

-Devin

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley

Devin,
not sure if they cut styrene or not, I'll have to check. My bad on the price quote (brain fart) , I was basing it on 1/96th scale, so the 1/200th should be less.

Edit: they do cut styrene, here's a link to check out.
http://customlasercutting.com/

Dean

Here's a short video of what I was talking about with the interlocking notches for the main frame. This is just an example not the final layout.

Not sure why this video won't embed, so here's the link.
http://youtu.be/HOrvrdi6kiw?hd=1

Dean

I love this video.

Since you are setting up for laser or waterjet cutting, it might be useful to design and cut one or more construction jigs. The structure you have appears to be pretty much self-aligning, but sometimes it is possible to build a lighter, slightly less intricate boat (or aircraft) using simple bench jigs that establish spacing and alignment but are left behind. The turtledecking might be easier to apply using precut fixtures.

On laser cut balsa planes, I try to completely assemble a major component like a fuse or wing -- and only then apply glue. I use penetrating aliphatic to secure already fitted joints. I probably spend more time on jigs and fixtures than I do on the model.

One of several problems I have noticed with the Real World is that it has no automatic "ortho" setting. Hence the jigging.

I hope you and Devin are planning to market this ship as a kit or laser cut short kit. Put me on the waiting list!

Devin, is there a technical reason to avoid mixed media like plywood and styrene? Different rates of expansion or something? Because it seems as though a mixture (wooden frame, plastic skin) might be easier to construct.

Michael

Thanks Michael,
Yeah at first I thought about using a jig, but my other thought was to make assembly simple enough were a jig or fixture was not really needed, at least for the main frame. But your right, if your looking for building it lite and lean, or have some tricky areas jigs are very helpful. Anyway, I think Devin wants to use filler on the frame and sand it in, instead of covering it with the styrene sheets. Oh, I should mention that this will be 1/200th scale (roughly 13.75" long), not the original size of the CAD model.
And I still have some more ideas to work on, so it may end up somewhat different, nothing is final yet.

Dean

This is 21st Century modelling!!! Can we get a pledge from Devin of a thread documenting the build?

How are you going to fab the turret and pilot house?

Owen

Yeah, let's put Devin on the hot seat ...

Good question on the turret/pilothouse/smokestack, maybe styrene/plastic tube with cut-out rings to slide into place for the sections on the smokestack, for the turrets, either tube and cut rings at the top and base, or frame it up and wrap styrene around it, same on the pilothouse. Devin can decide which way he wants to go, I'm easy that way .

Dean

DavidP,
Thanks for the tip, if you have more you'd like to share or any suggestions on the layout, feel free to post them, the more options the better.

Dean

Michael,

Yes, the dissimilar material and the different behaviors with heat, humidity, etc., and the gluing of those materials together are my main reasons for avoiding them. I have no problems with using different materials for detail work (such as PE for railings and details, or wooden ship's boats, etc.), but for something like this I feel that wood would be less stable than plastic. As Dean said, my initial idea for the 1/200 scale build is to put together the frames as he's shown them, and then fill between them with Aves Apoxie Sculpt just a little proud of the frame edges, and then sand it down smooth. I'm afraid that without a lot of extra work to seal the wood, the Aves would put moisture into a wood structure and cause issues.

It may be a moot point; I'm going to email the company that Dean linked to and ask what they suggest. From dealing with laser etching and cutting companies in the past, I have a suspicion that they might not be able to work well with styrene of .060 thick without it burning or making soft cuts. In that case, wood it will be and we'll go from there.

The stacks and pilot house will be easy enough: either there is telescoping brass tubing that is the correct diameter (hopefully!) or I'll turn them on a lathe as I did with the stack on my Weehawken. I'm thinking with the turret that I want to cut the bottom/floor and the top/roof (hopefully with the grate detail) circles from styrene, and then figure out some way to wrap them in heated sheet styrene to build up a hollow turret.

Yes, there will be a build blog/log of this beastie, whenever it gets off the ground (or is it off the ways?). I'm working now to get some other projects off the bench and a writing deadline behind me so that I can start playing with this as I return to my Carondeletbuild.

-Devin

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley