The Ship Model Forum

May I ask, what is the date of the Wyllie painting?
A good artist, but like Wilkinson and Pears, more concerned with atmosphere and feel than accuracy.
In my opinion, the best contemporary artist that depicted RN warships of the Two World Wars was Muirhead-Bone. Others may disagree of course.

I have about 30 period prints taken from books by print dealers. The advantage of Wyllie was access. He had permission to paint and draw from life on the ships during the war. His watercolor of PRINCESS ROYAL being repaired after Jutland (on the cover of David K. Brown's THE GRAND FLEET) is a goldmine for information on the state of the ship in the battle. Of course, colors on book prints can't be taken too literally, but the common thread is a medium bluish gray except for a watercolor of INVINCIBLE at the Falklands in 1914, which was seemingly in a neutral light gray, or a 1920 watercolor of RENOWN at the NMM which shows the ship in what could only be AP 507C. Frankly, I have found the details of his Jutland paintings tally with photographs of the ships in the battle, and I have no doubt he was a scrupulous recorder. His sketches and watercolor studies are superb sources. I wish somebody would publish a collection of his wartime work. If I can ever get back to London for an extended time, I'll do this myself!

I've got a print book somewhere of period WW1/Inter War RN warship prints. I'm not sure of the artists in question, but they maybe from some of the painters already mentioned. I've never thought to use it as a source for camouflage of battle damage evidence.

I'll dig it out and see what's inside!

All the WWI armored cruiser models made by Norman Ough in the Imperial War Museum photograph like ARH's IRON DUKE model which is in WEM 507A. Interestingly, the IWM has a fragment from a boat recovered from the water from HMS HAMPSHIRE sunk right after Jutland---it's a medium blue-gray color just like WEM 507A. The Wyllie of LION at Jutland (has been used on the cover of numerous books) shows LION and the armored cruisers of Arbuthnot's Squadron in medium blue-gray. Clearly the LION was deeply researched because the details of the forward superstructure, spotting top, and flags flown from the foremast conform to the photographs of the ship taken during the battle and the next day. The Claus Bergen paintings of the High Sea Fleet at Jutland (done from life after the battle---the Kaiser had the fleet "pose" for Bergen) are the only color record we have of the German ships in the battle. Wyllie's and Bergen's Jutland paintings are treasures.

Hi,

Would anyone care to comment on the work of

Colour Of HM Ships: Chronological Notes

The post Jutland colours come from "British Warships 1914-1919" by FJ Dittmar & JJ Colledge Ian Allan Ltd 1972.
8. 9.14Flotilla leader FAULKNOR has been painted grey
19.11.14 Hulls and weather work of all H M ships in home waters except torpedo craft to become
light grey. Mixture to be 1 part black to 20 parts white by weight.
27.3.15 Destroyers of the 6th Flotilla experimentally patchy grey.
6.4.15 Destroyers to remain dead black but masts to become a very light grey.
6.4.15 A false bow wave to be painted on all ships.
7.5.15 False bow wave not to be painted on destroyers and torpedo boats.
1.6.15 No bow wave on any ships.
13.7.15 Paint flotilla leaders grey. destroyers remain black.
18.8.15 Armed trawlers to be painted In their original fishing colours with their commercial fishing
numbers.
1916 The cruiser CARYSFORT temporarily painted blue.
15.4.16 Approval given to paint destroyers of the 2nd DF grey while with that command.
23.5.16 Commander-In-Chief Rosyth's proposal to paint his torpedo craft grey approved-to be
done during the summer months.
7. 7.16 All torpedo craft hitherto black to be painted grey. Hull 1 part black to 20 parts white
(by weight), upper works to use mixture 1 part black to 23 parts white.
14. 7.16 Boats of destroyers to be painted grey, 1 part black to 23 parts white.
1. 8.16 H M ships and armed patrol yachts to be painted grey (formula 1 :20 black and white).
Destroyers to remain dead black with masts very light grey.
4. 8.16 Upper works of destroyers and leaders painted grey.
22. 8.16 Suggested that submarines be painted black on horizontal parts, vertical parts grey.
Colour depends upon decision of Senior Officer of each area.
19. 4.17 Topmasts of H M ships to paint 1 part black to 250 parts white (by weight) mixture by
order of Commander-in-Chief, Grand Fleet.
10. 8.18 Dazzle camouflage painting ordered for merchant ships and armed merchant cruisers of
the 10th CS.
8. 2.19 All light cruisers on East Indies and China stations to be painted white.
1. 3.19 Survey ships to be painted white.
Notes: In spite of the confusion generated in painting orders concerning destroyers and torpedo boats, it can be concluded that order of 7.7.16 did become effective by 15.8.16 and from that date the pendant numbers were painted up. An order from 1914 specified that two ensigns were to be flown by H M ships in order that confusion resulting from distant similarities between the white ensign and the German ensign could be reduced. An order dated 19.11.14 put into effect a system of markings on the after two funnels to denote divisional status; this system was a repetition of earlier ones and did not remain in effect for long. The colour notes above all originated from Admiralty fleet orders of that date and were effective when received. Date format is DD.MM.YY.

I have the Dittmar & Colledge book also George and I've never been able to find evidence in other sources which backs this up.
However knowing the authors previous work and attention to detail it's unlikely to be inaccurate.

Furthermore my complaint with it is I wish they had referenced this more so i.e. telling the reader what the reference codes were for these orders in the Admiralty filing system so one could go and look these orders up, clarify and perhaps find more details.

I suspect they are in the PRO, but the Admiralty Fleet Orders section ADM182 only starts at 1921, so there not in the same series as Interwar and WW2 here:-

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=3452814&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5

Therefore I feel Dittmar & Colledge must be using files like this to find the Fleet orders on WW1 camouflage:-

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4544945&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CFLEET%2CORDERS&accessmethod=0&Summary=True

Warship camouflage on Royal Navy ships in WW1 still is a major gap in the literature and thus still waits a researcher to go to town on.

Laurence,

Thanks for your comments and links. I can only agree that RN WWI colour is an open research topic. I can also be envious of those who get to explore the previous times at Kew.