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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:29 pm 
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Hello Everyone,

For scratchbuilding you need plans, but what plans? I see most people buy them, but what do you get/need? Top sight, side view of both sides, front view, stern view, linesplan and what else? At what scale? Is it possible to make a 1/350 model out of a very tiny 1/700 plan? The adverse is probably ok.

A question to Ron and Bill and others with experience, are there any specific details included in the plans you buy? Or just the general ship view, obliging you to look for the details yourself?

If you want to make your own plans, how do you start with it? Is it possible to get it done well from pictures?

I suppose this thread could also be used to share plans!

Regards
Roel

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:45 pm 
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Hi Roel, First you need

PLAN
SIDE VIEW
RIB SHAPE SECTIONS,

Some drawings have detail at each rib section, this can be very helpfull.

some have small sketches of small fittings, but not all.

Research is one of the biggest things, plan in advance before starting

Finding photo,s of the date you want to model the ship.

Look for books, 1 picture can be worth the price of the book.


ARH :jump_1: :jump_1: :woo_hoo: :woo_hoo: :wave_1: :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:37 pm 
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Hello Ron,
Well the case is, I started a Talwar class frigate, 1/700 waterline (I know you don't know the ship :big_grin: )
Nonetheless, there are no plans available, so I drew them myself, no underwater section as it is not known what these vessels look alike under water. Yet, the question is, would it be worth the effort to try and build something from such self-made plans?

As for books, you are indeed right about that! they are vitally important.
But in the future I want to start a Merchant ship, probably using the plans of the ship itself if the company allows. Then I should copy that right? How many ribs do you generally use? Do you always keep the same space between two ribs? I know the ship I'm eyeing has some ribs that are the same, the middle section of the ship is "box-shaped", do you keep the ribs in there, or do you leave some out in that area?
Where do you get the Balsa blocks? I've seen you using these for bow and stern and keep wondering how you shape them correctly?
If I am to use your method of building, will you come and help me out??? :big_grin:

Regards
Roel

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:44 pm 
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Neptune wrote:
Hello Ron,
Well the case is, I started a Talwar class frigate, 1/700 waterline (I know you don't know the ship :big_grin: )
Nonetheless, there are no plans available, so I drew them myself, no underwater section as it is not known what these vessels look alike under water. Yet, the question is, would it be worth the effort to try and build something from such self-made plans?

As for books, you are indeed right about that! they are vitally important.
But in the future I want to start a Merchant ship, probably using the plans of the ship itself if the company allows. Then I should copy that right? How many ribs do you generally use? Do you always keep the same space between two ribs? I know the ship I'm eyeing has some ribs that are the same, the middle section of the ship is "box-shaped", do you keep the ribs in there, or do you leave some out in that area?
Where do you get the Balsa blocks? I've seen you using these for bow and stern and keep wondering how you shape them correctly?
If I am to use your method of building, will you come and help me out??? :big_grin:

Regards
Roel


I'll try to answer some of your above questions. Ron is correct on the bare minimum views for a ship, that is a plan view, a side elevation, and the rib sections, or bulkheads or stations as they are sometimes called. The ribs are usually numbered and there should be corresponding numbers on the side view of the ship. They are usually spaced equally, but not always, and yes, use all ribs. I sometimes add a few if needed. Balsa comes in a huge variety of shapes and sizes from strips, to sheets to blocks in many dimensions. Your local hobby supplier should be able to help. Otherwise search around on the internet as there are many vendors. As far as using balsa blocks to shape the bow and stern areas,I do the same thing. Cut the block a bit oversize and then attach to your hull. Hand shape it from there with some coarse sandpaper on a rubber sanding block. If the rest of your hull shape is reasonably accurate, then forming in the blocks used for the bow and stern areas should be realitivly easy. Ron is also correct in that good planning is essential to a good build, so do your homework FIRST!! HTH! Bill W. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:59 pm 
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Hi Roel,
It is not impossible to build a model from the way you describe, but unless you have a proper plan, you are not going to end up with an acurate model.
Regarding the ribs, or frames as they are more commonly refered to, depends on the size of the model you wish to build. For example, on Marlborough and Ron's Iron Duke at 1/96 scale ( 1/8" to 1 ft ) there are 29 frames, spaced out at around three inches, for most of the length and about 2 inches at the bow and stern,which is adequate for our models. The real ships would have had more than this, possbly 3 times the number, but this was to add strength to the ship. On a model, you can leave out some of the frames, which will cut down on the weight of the model, and will still be strong, once it is planked and coated with resin.

The centre two or three frames are usually about the same width then start to taper inwards towards the bow and stern, as well as curve sharper from deck level towards the keel. And the shape of all these are criticle, if you want a good sailing model, as is the case with Ron's and mine.
The trueness of the hull shape needs to be as near to the real ship as possible. and from a waterline model, you are not going to acheive this. The underside of the hull, is the most important part of getting everything the right shape from the keel upwards.

So really, you need a proper plan, as Ron described in his previous post.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:13 pm 
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Roel, Can you not e-mail me your plan and let me look at it, is it that you want to build a 1/350 waterline model of this ship.ARH

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:38 pm 
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Hi Roel I follow with interest your request for information with regards plans and the possbility of making your own.
Any set of plans should consist of:-
1 Body plan ,frame stations Point to consider The forward section of the ship are drawn on the right hand side whilst the after section is shown on the left
2 Sheer plan or profile Showing the the general out line of the ship , the position and the "sheer" of the decks, the position of the design "load water line" plus the stations along the hull which should correspond with the body plan
3 Plan of the main deck
4 GA [ general arrangements drawing ] this drawing can be quite comprehensive showing plenty of detail or little or no detail relating to the outer profile and fittings .
5 Rig In older vessels at least up to the 1930s a separate rig plan was prepared showing the position of all the rigging.
Regarding drawing up your own plans , say from photos yes this can be done as was shown some months ago were a 1:144 model of the Kirov was built using photos. To be honest this is a very difficult process and one I would not recommend as the chances of making an inacurate hull are high. Stick to available plans preferably those drawn by modellers usually using the original builders drawing as they do tend to show fittings details were as " naval architects" draughts can be hard to follow and to transalate into a form useful for modelling unless you have had some previous experience in using these type of drawings.
Hope this help
Dave Wooley


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 Post subject: plans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:26 am 
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hello my two cents worth.i have plans of modern ships for me i need general arrnagment plan and midship section plan.sometimes theres no lines plan but a good set of photos and drydocka s well i can draw the section plan.but most of vessels built even warships in 1930-40 would have lines and body plan. :jump_1: well thats my thoughts


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:58 am 
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Thanks Dave (and others),
Indeed the large Kirov and other large Soviet models of the same builder made me question this. I wonder how he designed the plans, accurate, even at such a scale? Any idea how he did it?

For the Talwar plans, I included the superstructure in the frames... It's one of these new "stealthified" ships with large angled surfaces. So, to make it more smooth, I included some strength members in the framing so that I can put it together in one part, or at least with less trouble than adding the superstructure seperately.

I'll scan the drawings this weekend and send them over to you Ron. I have a top view of the waterline, top view of the ship, side view on starboard side (other side is the same anyway) and a stern drawing along with 10 frames. (take in account that is just 1/700 and hence only 17.8cm long (little less than half a feet)). Now if I were to build a larger version of it, then it would probably be 1/400 or 1/200 (although I think 1/200 would be impossible as it would likely get too inaccurate).

Thanks for the help already given!

Roel

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:04 am 
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As a scratchbuilding veteran of pre-internet days, I can tell you that if you truly want to model a particular ship, but have no proper profiles, drawings, or plans, your task becomes more difficult. However, this does not mean impossible, no matter what anyone tells you! I have been "transcribing" original model patterns for my scratchbuilds for more than 30 years, using alternate information.

These days, it is usually not required to go to the extremes I had to, as things are far easier to locate such as official drawings, photographs, and text documents. While I won't go into great depth here, suffice it to say that I've built at least eight reasonably-accurate models in this manner, using every scrap of photographic and other "evidence" available.

I drew my own plans on large pieces of pale green freezer paper, cut from a roll of the stuff I kept under my drafting table. My progress would often be interrupted, whenever I encountered an information gap. Completing a plan under those conditions often took weeks of painstaking and frustration, but in almost all cases, I would eventually find the required information.

I will caution you, that even with the comparative abundancy of drawings out there, they aren't always 100% reliable! I am currently scratchbuilding a certain ship model, not available commercially in the scale I work with. At least two sources have marketed plans of this subject, in other scales; BOTH are inaccurate in a noticeable way, depicting the ship with a rounded stern when, in fact, the ship in question did not have such a feature! Having indisputable, multi-sourced photographic PROOF to the contrary however, I ignored the plan's configuration and carefully built my model with a stern shape of much greater accuracy.

Even the most accurate of drawings can only be valid to a degree. Ships often change appearances, especially if they had/have long service careers. Take HMS Hood, for example; this ship existed for many years, and went through a number of significant changes in appearance. If your plans are accurate for say, 1933 Hood, and you are modeling her as in 1941, guess what?

The key here, is to acquire as much research material on your chosen subject as you can get your hands on, and even if you have "accurate" plans, don't rely on them alone, to produce your finished product. Equally, don't rely on someone else's model---commercially produced or otherwise---to make yours from. Get hold of photographs, technical references, photographs, drawings, photographs, textbooks.....(did I mention photographs? :eyebrows: )....they're almost essential as back-up sources to your drawings.

My nickel's worth....Good Luck!! :thumbs_up_1:


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