Making stretched sprue and Rigging with stretched sprue

[Torpedo]

Please forgive me if this doesn't work, but you can buy very thin copper-wire (normally used for elektric devices) which is thinner than a hair. Is there any reason why this isn't used instead of plastic?

[Timmy C]

In my experience, wires tend to "kink" - it's very easy to make them have a bend in the length that is very difficult to get rid of. They're great for shorter-lengthed things, like modern whip antennae, but longer runs are quite difficult to keep straight.

[russclark]

well i wish i had found this thread a couple of days ago.i decided to use spruge on my romas rigging,l made lovely strands in differant thickness.i was proud as punch.i glued a few on and as i was gluing them on others fell off .so i gave up and used tread. i had know idea ca glue melted the stuff.that Jim is one smart cookie,i will try his metod of attaching it.

[Eric Bergerud]

One of the few tasks in modelling that I have not found daunting is stretching sprue: sure will try your method though - looks great.

One thing has me scratching my head though. I assume that the Revell polstyrene cement you recommend is what we call Testors. Because the stuff is widely used in armor land for lots of things (except gluing plastic parts) I've spent some time with it. I'm sure I'm simply not seeing something simple, but here goes. You urge replacing plastic masts etc with metal. I can see that very thin plastic rod isn't going to be ideal for holding anything that exerts pressure. However, I've been testing attaching some stretched sprue to some left over PE sprue. It does bond. But it does unbond very easily. Maybe I've missed something, but I thought super glue or apoxy was recommended for resin and PE and not plastic cement. Anyway, I see glued sprue falling off easily.

Obviously your method works or you wouldn't use it. Is this just a matter of using extremely light plastic sprue and being very careful. Or maybe a good sized dollop of glue?

Eric Bergerud
PS: thanks for the tip on checking the 96 scale Iron Duke. It was blast going through the build and I learned a lot that will come in very handy.

[aleccap]

ebergerud - using stretched sprue isn't as easy as it looks, once you can master this however, the effect is very rewarding indeed. The thing you have to remember is glue will destroy plastic, so the thinner the plastic the more glue will attack it and melt before your eyes, this is where you have to try, try and try again.
A little story - when I first came back into this hobby, a brake of some 38 years, it was a different world, PE was something I had never heard of, and everyone said use super glue. Well, as you or anyone else would tell you, its great for sticking fingers together so there must be something else, I love DIY and built several units and use PVA or wood glue, and guess what, it sticks PE and not fingers, don't make things so complexed that you end up confused over something quite simple.
Try a very small amount of PVA on the stretched plastic, look at Jim's photo's with him (model upside-down) once the line has been secured and allowed to dry (a few sconds) the Joss stick ''smoke'' he is actually targetting that onto the line a little at a time, get it right and its like watching magic believe me it is.
To be blunt, I like using my dribble method of running super glue down very thin fly fishing line, but you'll never get this straight over a distance of 2/3 inches mast to mast will alway be the Jim B method which is a pain in the arse but is best.
Good luck.

[Eric Bergerud]

Probably not being clear - my specialty. I think I can figure how to attach plastic sprue to plastic. I'm not sure about attaching plastic sprue to a metal/PE mast with Testors plastic cement. I suspect one reason that Mr. Baumann likes Revell (I'm only assuming it's the US Testors) is that it works more slowly and doesn't attack plastic as vigorously as Tamiya or, better yet, Weld-On 3. It also doesn't dry as quickly, explaining it's popularity for link tracks in tank-world. As noted, I've got some PE sprue around and have tried gluing some of my plastic sprue against it with Testors and the stuff comes undone pretty quickly. Super Glue would hold it very nicely if it didn't annihilate the sprue/line or if you didn't screw up with it. I do admit to hating super glue and will always look for a alternative. Baumann's method must work, or he wouldn't use it. Just wonder if this is a matter of him being naturally more careful and subtle in approach than lower primates like myself. For what it's worth, I've super glued very thin plastic sprue on several aircraft for antenna. (If things are quiet, I get help from my wife: you can do it with a very small bit of glue if you can guide the line with both hands and call "hit the kicker." Usually works and the connection point is invisible.) I'm very interested in David Griffith's idea of using mucilage glue. I've got some on order, in the meantime I made my own batch with gelatin and vinegar. It's very "tacky" and should hold a thin sprue or fly-line in place. Once it dries, the line will stay put for sure. And as the stuff is really kind of an amber and not a cement, the material type won't matter. I've used the stuff on PE doors and hatches and it's very good for that. PE or fly line/thin sprue are so light that you might as well make that inherent difficulty work for. BTW: I've found that if you want to move a bit of PE (or a small plastic part) and get it to stay in a place for a dab of super glue or something else, that Future works very well. It's just tacky enough to hold small bits, but obviously won't do any damage and isn't a glue so you can remove things no problem. Got that idea from an editor of Military Modeler on YouTube who recommended using Future to attach aircraft canopies. I've taken up that practice and it works fine. Course if you turned the thing upside down to let incense drift up on it, the canopy would fall off. With my Iron Duke a couple of turrets will probably go AWOL.
Eric

[JIM BAUMANN]

The loads on each individual piece of rigging are negligible.

As such the liquid cement 'melts' the end of each piece of sprue and makes a very positive attachment to any material or surface, ==> funnel, deck, rail, mast or yard etc .

The advantage over CA is that the cement actually almost entirely ' vanishes' into vapour -

-ergo no adhesive build-up--unlike CA--where one often sees models with 'swollen' yard arm ends....

Trust me it works--but always use a NEW drop of cement for each individual strand of rigging, as the cement starts curing the moment it leaves the bottle and you need it 'hot' and fresh...

JIM B

[Eric Bergerud]

I'm sure there's a good reason that most of the 700 scale ship models I've seen in the flesh have had sparse or no rigging at all - I don't think ship modeling falls into the "simple" category once you get past a certain point. Luckily Mr. Baumann's technique is wonderfully illustrated here - incense and all. (I even bought some: wife was a little confused about that one, although she was a "flower child" - no joke.) I bought David Griffith's book "Ship Models from Kits" and he's got a completely different technique of using very fine fishing line with PVA (anchored with blue stick and masking tape) also illustrated very nicely in living color. Naturally, I'd like to be able to afford my own personal styrene trainer, but for the moment these are pretty decent resources. I'm also looking around at the WWI aircraft crowd. Rigging a plane looks pretty simple compared to this stuff, but they've certainly put a lot of thought into it. I've been collecting cheap brooms: I've one with really thin plastic bristles that won't work for 700 scale, but I'm sure would stand in for something in 350: ditto with a metal brush with 2" bristles that are very thin but hold shape. And of course there's Mr. Baumann's friend's method of making your own railing with solder. One thing I do have is a growing collection of products that make one thing stick to another. CVA, PVA, plastic glues of every description, dual tack tapes, low tack Magic Tape (found that today - looks great for masking) and glue dots. Good news is that I'm ready for a crack at rigging and railing. Bad news is that if it screws up I don't have anyone to blame.

Eric

[Marky mark]

Jim, I just registered to say that I just tried your method for tensioning rigging and it worked fantastically well. The other half even likes it as it makes the place smell nice as well. One question, can you over tension as it seems to have drawn th main mast forward a bit? The kit was Trumpies 350 Prinz Eugen. Thanks again its made a huge difference to how the finished item looks as I was not going to rig till I saw your piece.

Mark

[Eric Bergerud]

Tried Mr Baumann's sprue making technique and it is indeed much easier than other ways I've tried. It did take me a little while to figure out that if you wanted thicker sprue you had to slow the process a bit. (Wanted to do that because I think having sprue just thick enough to maintain "memory" will make it valuable for all kinds of modeling chores, even if it's seriously out of scale for a 600 ship.) Making the micro-grade stuff is indeed simple.

So tonight I'll try rigging a ship. My poor Iron Duke has survived a number of "firsts" and I hope she's in for the shock. I've got enough sprue to rig Victory, Testors glue and what I hope are serviceable tweezers. Also have blue tack, ultra-thin Italian fly line, mucilage and David Griffith's book in case his techniques better serve my slow hands. Both look pretty daunting. Might even try another rigger's suggestion and get out my "helping hands" which have done much for me yet, but might actually help here. Can only try.

Eric

[JIM BAUMANN]

>One question, can you over tension as it seems to have drawn th main mast forward a bit?<


As far as I have been able to ascertain-- once the sprue has reached tension, it cannot be tightened further without snapping...

I would point the finger-respectfully ... at the masts-..did you use the plastic kit items?

For all modelships I always make new metal masts of ideally stainless steel - see my build articles

thin masts of plastic -with age- 'can' sometimes 'wander' towards a lightsource - ie window or similar ... arghh!

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html


Stainless has far greater spring and strength than brass-- so will resist any untoward rigging loads more effectively.
But on the whole glad that the sprue worked for you!



JIM B

[Marky mark]

Yes I used the kit masts. My skills are not to the stage yet of building my own, its only my third ship since starting to build them after always doing aircraft. The pull forward isnt so bad but it catches my eye a bit. Its finished and I am happy as I wanted it finished before I deploy for four months. Thanks again.

[Eric Bergerud]

Want to thank Mr. Baumann and others on this thread (heavens, no pun intended). I used the stretched sprue techniques - making and tightening with incense and they both worked trumps. Can't say that I mastered anyone's rigging procedure. I think David Griffith's ideas nicely illustrated in his book might well have worked had there been more rigging in the horizontal. Here everything was very confined and vertical. All I can say is that I'd never done it before and had to muddle through. Ended up using a combination of old fashioned Testors tube cement to get a hold, followed by a dab of Gator Glue which makes for a very strong bond. One of the nice things about sprue is that I had several different widths to work with. I'm sure that I got them out of scale, but the halyards and the cables for the crane were clearly supposed to be thicker than rest of the rigging. Some of it must be small enough because I can't really see it more than three feet away, nor does it all show up in photos. I put a few photos up in gallery. Here's one to save bother.

Thanks again.
Eric

[Pagodaphile]

Yes I used the kit masts. My skills are not to the stage yet of building my own, its only my third ship since starting to build them after always doing aircraft.

To borrow the above comment from Mark, I too appreciate your information on rigging, however, it does require a skill set that I think many (myself included) have not yet mastered, namely replacing / scratchbuilding masts.

I work mainly in 1/700. While there are PE sets out there that offer a yardarm here and there, I haven't seen much of anything that gives the modeler a complete change over from deck to masthead. This then launches one into scratchbuilding and assembly with multi-media materials.

Where would you direct someone for a primer in this area ?

[Dan Thompson]

BTW: I've found that if you want to move a bit of PE (or a small plastic part) and get it to stay in a place for a dab of super glue or something else, that Future works very well. It's just tacky enough to hold small bits, but obviously won't do any damage and isn't a glue so you can remove things no problem. Got that idea from an editor of Military Modeler on YouTube who recommended using Future to attach aircraft canopies. I've taken up that practice and it works fine. Course if you turned the thing upside down to let incense drift up on it, the canopy would fall off. With my Iron Duke a couple of turrets will probably go AWOL.
Eric

Slightly OT reply here but, I think Eric is underestimating the holding power of Future. I've used it many times to attach canopies and they will not fall off if the model is inverted. Future makes a pretty decent adhesive for certain jobs. I haven't tried it yet on rigging but suspect it would work as well as mucilage for David Griffith's method but might not dry fast enough to be used with Jim's stretched sprue method. Another drawback I can see is that it is naturally glossy so any rigging points would have to get a matte touchup.

[D-Boy]

Yes I used the kit masts. My skills are not to the stage yet of building my own, its only my third ship since starting to build them after always doing aircraft.

To borrow the above comment from Mark, I too appreciate your information on rigging, however, it does require a skill set that I think many (myself included) have not yet mastered, namely replacing / scratchbuilding masts.

I work mainly in 1/700. While there are PE sets out there that offer a yardarm here and there, I haven't seen much of anything that gives the modeler a complete change over from deck to masthead. This then launches one into scratchbuilding and assembly with multi-media materials.

Where would you direct someone for a primer in this area ?

This would be helpfu to me. I've reached a point in modeling where I am very tempted by the possibilities of upgraded masts, but have no idea what tools, techniques, or materials practitioners would recommend for a fast start in the practice.

[Builder 2010]

Jim, I slowly getting my Tamiya Missouri to the stage as I have to do the antenna rigging and flag halyards. I want to use your method. What do you do for insulators and turnbuckles? Also, when you substitute for metal masts, what do you do for all of the other structures that surround them? As I get deeper into the details of the WWII Iowas, I see that these "simple" masts have lots of stuff holding them up, e.g., angular braces, Forestays and backstays, etc. These are hard to fasten to metal masts (I think). Here's a shot of the ship as of today's session.

I'm modeling the ship at the end of WWII as it was on the trip back to Pearl. The teak had been returned to natural wood and the 20mm tubs were already removed abreast of turret 2. John at Scaledecks cut these so that tub was gone. The horizontal metal surfaces remained 20B deck blue. I wanted the wood decks to show, but also wanted most of the WWII weapons configuration and this specific time period allowed that.

It has Scaledecks Maple decks, ABER brass main guns, steel prop shafts, and the Eduard Missouri set. I really need to make a second one to incorporate all the learnings from this one. I've also added as many vertical and angular supports as practical on the overhanging tubs. I scratchbuilt the boat davit winches which lie foreward of the ship's boats P & S.

Today, I built the first MK38 radar set. Eduard is very accurate and very, very delicate. I actually have two complete sets to make one complete ship. Eduard etches where the bends go. Very convenient, but the etching reduces the cross-section so much that the parts often disassmble themselves at these points. It's exasperating! With the second set of PE that Eduard sent, I'm replacing some of the railings that have taken the most beating. I've covered the stand and hull with protection so I can work on the upper works without messing up a finished surface.

[JIM BAUMANN]

Jim, I slowly getting my Tamiya Missouri to the stage as I have to do the antenna rigging and flag halyards. I want to use your method. What do you do for insulators and turnbuckles?

I use thinned white glue for the turnbuckles , applied with a paintbrush-carefully and then painte them using thinned enamel paint-carefully! and blobs of paint for the insulators



Also, when you substitute for metal masts, what do you do for all of the other structures that surround them? As I get deeper into the details of the WWII Iowas, I see that these "simple" masts have lots of stuff holding them up, e.g., angular braces, Forestays and backstays, etc. These are hard to fasten to metal masts (I think). Here's a shot of the ship as of today's session.

I use paper for angled brace s and gussets- tacked in place with matt varnish and then once in place I add a drop of CA using a piece of stretched sprue as the applicator--slightly springy so it does not dislodge the varnish tacked piece.


For Braces I use CA to glue-- but always tacked in place with matt varnish--more predictable, gives plenty of wiggle time and nice and tacky for grab to give location
Superglue can be decidedly un-super some times....!!

[Builder 2010]

Thanks... I keep the forum abreast of the success (or failure) going forward on the rigging challenges.

[Rob-UK]

I tried this the other day, making the stretched sprue worked a treat. I had tried before but used the wrong technique and had uneven results, but trying the technique described by Jim worked perfectly first time, producing a long and even hair thickness length, enough for a number of rigging lines.

The difficult part was attaching the lines as polystyrene type glues do seem to melt the end quite rapidly. Tried using liquid poly and ca glues and settled on thicker type Revell glue. It took over an hour just to attach the first two lines, but as with most new things got quicker with trial and error. Also access reaching into the inner areas of the model carefully without touching any part already done was part of the difficulty and required an advanced level of digital contortionism. Other difficulties are caused by air movement in the room which although normally imperceptable indoors blows a thread of stretched sprue around, and lighting had to be very good just to see it properly. I'm fairly confident that perceverence and practice will win through.