The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:51 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 pm
Posts: 656
Location: Westminster, Colorado
Greetings
At your ship club meeting I demonstrated Tungsten wire as a rigging material. The purpose is to replicate natural "sag" in the cable. I purchased some "straightened and annealed" but even coming off the spool it has some curve in it. I'm wondering....

1. Does anyone have any thoughts about reducing the amount of curl coming off the spool? Does pulling work?
2. Has anyone had any experience with his material and can you provide some best practices? What glue are you using? What sequence do you use in rigging the model? Do you paint before or after?
3. What tools do you use to cut the wire?

I'm seeing a lot of potential with this material. Here's the demonstration piece I made for our ship club meeting...

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:13 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Russia, Novgorod
davidwaples wrote:
Greetings

2. Has anyone had any experience with his material and can you provide some best practices?


Tungsten is a very hard to solder. Sometimes unpredictable bursts due to the presence of impurities.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 1:50 pm
Posts: 1980
This is why I prefer stretched sprue. :wave_1:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Wellington New Zealand
David - what you've posted is the best tungsten wire modelling I've seen. I'm afraid YOU are the go to person. I marvel at the sag (catenary curve) you've achieved. My efforts include all the shape memory the wire has of being curled up in its reel AND the newly induced shape memory of my efforts to straighten it. I have given up on Tungsten wire and warned all my friends - it is truly a work of the devil.

However your posted pictures give me new hope - I will rummage around the trash to find my tungsten wire and try again.

Thanks for the inspiration

Lester Abbey


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:31 pm
Posts: 117
what's the advantage of tungsten over other material for rigging? just curious.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 pm
Posts: 656
Location: Westminster, Colorado
The idea is to be able to replicate a correct line sag. The issue with materials like fishing line, sprue, etc. is that it is not straight. You may get a "sag" when looking at it from he side but it likely will have a twist in it and not look natural from other angles. Tungsten that's been professionally straightened gives you that natural look.
Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:04 pm
Posts: 829
Location: Paris
What about Cu and NiCr (Konstantan) ? Copper can be straightend by pulling and then you can give it a light curve by judiciously drawing the wire across a round piece of steel or similar. In this way you can simulate a real catena, i.e. a curve that is (sort of) parabolic.

Fly-tying thread can also be stiffend using varnish and suspended in a suitabale curve while drying; from this you cut a piece to size.

_________________
wefalck

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Image Image Image Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:25 am
Posts: 2140
Location: Los Angeles and Houston
I have used Tungsten wire, as well as Copper and Nickel (or Chrome-molly) for doing WWI Model Airplanes.

It can be tricky to work with because it is so tough, and elastic (returns to prior shape).

The sag you have above looks pretty good.

But if you are looking to straighten it even more, then stretching it out on an armature or frame, and then re-tempering, and then re-annealing will get it to be STRAIGHT.

We had to do this for 1/144 WWI aircraft.

I found copper wire to be better than Tungsten, as the copper wire tended to behave better (kept the shape). It is more "Malleable" than is Tungsten.

Tungsten is GREAT for strength, and for durability. But it is not very good for malleability, and it needs to be originally shaped for an application (prior to tempering, shaped exactly), because it is very difficult to un-do a Tungsten object after tempering (even with annealing). So, if you have the time and patience to work the thread into the right consistency, before shaping it, then Tungsten is a good choice.

Otherwise, I would go with copper.

I have not yet started rigging ships, but I do plan to with my USN DDs (1/700), and then with the remaining ships I do afterwards. But I will be using Copper.

There is a chance that I might have an opportunity to pick up some carbon-fiber, though, so I might try that out. But unless it is free, I wouldn't bother with it (It is freakishly expensive).

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 1401
Location: Wallburg, NC
Not sure what wire I use, but lately I've used some silver, metal wire I recycled from some fine elec. cable bundles in an old HP printer. The plastic insulation is purple if that means anything; I haven't determined the wire diameter but it is much smaller than the multi-strand copper telephone wires you find in land line phone systems (red/yellow/blue/black). These wires worked fine for my wire rope needed on my PENNSY boat cranes. I don't know how they would do for very long runs of wire. They do bend, but are fragile and can't be bent too much before breaking. Getting them out of the plastic insulation is tricky, but doable.

I also use E-Z- Line from Berkshire Junction RR supplies - it's fine, black, BUT stretches which is a negative when trying to install. http://www.berkshirejunction.com/

As for the tungsten wire, where is this found (vendor, etc.)?

_________________
HMS III
Wallburg, NC
BB-62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late 1940 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 7:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:37 pm
Posts: 245
Why isn't Modelkasten more popular? I love the stuff. Costs more than the gdp of a small country though.

Image

_________________
It's Espresso, not Expresso. Coffee is not a train in Italy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 pm
Posts: 656
Location: Westminster, Colorado
speedbird wrote:
Why isn't Modelkasten more popular? I love the stuff. Costs more than the gdp of a small country though.


Can you tell us more about the Modelkasten wire and why you like it? What traits does it exhibit and how do you work with it?

Thanks!
Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:37 pm
Posts: 245
Sure I can. It comes off the spool as straight as an arrow, it's metal wore so it adds to the strength of the mast, glues perfectly, comes in 3 or 4 thicknesses, and it sags very naturally in 1/700.

It's really great stuff

_________________
It's Espresso, not Expresso. Coffee is not a train in Italy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 pm
Posts: 656
Location: Westminster, Colorado
Thanks for the feedback. I've ordered a spool and am anxious to compare it to the Tungsten wire.
Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:37 pm
Posts: 245
No memory and it doesn't bend or break. Not sure what it is, but I love the stuff

_________________
It's Espresso, not Expresso. Coffee is not a train in Italy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Wellington New Zealand
Hi Speedbird - so where did you get this "Modelkasten'?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 pm
Posts: 656
Location: Westminster, Colorado
Hi Lester,
I may be able to help you with this. I found this at Hobby Link Japan and also Hobby Search also in Japan. HLJ has the lower price but Hobby Search has a couple more options. Both very good vendors. I found it in the US at Sprue Brothers but my guess is that in New Zealand you'll get a better deal out of Japan.
Good luck
Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Wellington New Zealand
Thanks David, I know Hobbylink and Hobby Search very well. I'm sure they know my credit card number by heart by now.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 5:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:38 am
Posts: 1275
You mentioned using Modelkasten in 1/700. How would it fair in 1/350? I have to redo the rigging on my Nagara as it was trashed by a judge at an IPMS show.

_________________
Gabriel
Current Builds:
Fujimi Hiryu 1/350
Trumpeter San Francisco 1/350
Dutch Harbor PBY 1/350

Gallery


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 6:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 pm
Posts: 656
Location: Westminster, Colorado
Angeliccypher wrote:
You mentioned using Modelkasten in 1/700. How would it fair in 1/350? I have to redo the rigging on my Nagara as it was trashed by a judge at an IPMS show.


Very well actually. I wish I could put a table in here but let's see if I can make this work. Here are some rounded conversions for you...

2 in = 51mm: 1/700 scale= .07mm; 1/350 scale=.14mm
1 in = 25mm: 1/700 scale=.036mm; 1/350 scale=.07mm
.75 in = 19mm: 1/700 scale=.027mm; 1/350 scale=.027mm
.5 in = 12.7mm; 1/700 scale= .018mm; 1/350 scale=.036mm

The Modelkasten lists the mm measurement on their package. It comes in a variety of diameters. There are apparently several different styles. They sell their regular, what they call a "PRO", and black. There are a few more choices at Hobby Search than HLJ. If you click on the images of the spools it spells out the diameters which are as follows:
Regular (and I don't understand the labeling) is listed on their package label and sold as follows:

.06= .047mm (they list as 1/700)
.1 = .06mm (they list as 1/700)
.15= .07mm (they list as 1/700)
.3= .10mm (they list as 1/350)

The PRO at Hobby Search is listed as follows:
.04 and .08 mm

They list a "Black" at a .04mm

I hope that makes sense. You'll have to decide how true you'll want to stay to actual measurements. I can tell you I sampled some .038 mm Tungsten wire and it works well for 1/700. Get your magnifiers out.
Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:37 pm
Posts: 245
I use the 0.15, the thickest of the 1/700 appropriate rigging. I've used their smaller gauges for Bismarck and HMS Malaya and they're almost too fine. Using 2 guages adds to the realism anyway.

I custom cut each piece to minimize waste, and I save all the scraps to make awning supports. I can eek out 2.5 to 3 ships in 1/700 with the stuff if I'm careful. At $20 a pop, it's worth it to be frugal.

Also, they do anchor chain, but forget it. It's a braided filament that kinda looks like chain. I've used it for rolled torpedo nets and other misc projects but I wouldn't bother

_________________
It's Espresso, not Expresso. Coffee is not a train in Italy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group