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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:33 am 
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Good day all,

While not completely new to modelling, I've just gotten into it much more seriously..
So far I've only built a few 1/700 kits, just as a past time.
I do want to move on to bigger kits and now have the time to do so.
For the past few years I have been stashing kits against this day.
This is my collection.

1/700 Graff Zepplin
1/350 Graff Spee & PE & deck (What tools would I need for PE?)
1/350 Fletcher
1/350 Emden
1/200 Bismarck

So...question for all the Model Gurus out there... Considering me a complete newb, in what order should I approach these to buildup my skill levels?



Second thing I realized, for any decent finishing, I need an airbrush and a Dremel

Been looking at this one.
Dremel 8050-N/18 Micro Rotary Tool Kit
Master Airbrush Multi-purpose Professional Airbrushing System with 3 Airbrushes, 6' Air Hose

They both seem to be decent buys for the price (~$100 each)
Has anyone used these? Any issues noted? Any recommendations?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:22 am 
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Hey mate
First of all I would start by buying a few cheap 1/350 kits, since it is my belief that they are far far easier than 1/700 especially with PE. This will also allow you to get the hang of your new airbrush. My personal opinion is again to go with something cheap for starters and upgrade later according to your needs. I ve had a cheap china airbrush for 3 years now, works fine. Since all I do is cover surfaces with color and not airbrush painting, seems enough for me.

Dremels are a nice addition but not really really necessary unless you do a lot of scratchbuilding. I imagine you have all the hand tools you need like files, sandpapers, minidrills etc.
edit: look at the proxxon micromot, less power more control, and once you get the power adapter you cant stop buying stuff

For PE I use the flip R5 folding tool. At 15€ it's invaluable. Also flat pliers are a must have.

Try to do the best you can with each model no matter how long it takes (if you re in a rush you re also in the wrong hobby!!) See what others are doing, try to replicate.
The forum is very helpful, and i hope i was too. Take it easy and enjoy yourself!


PS leave the 1/200 Bismarck or other expensive kits until you feel very confident...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:30 am 
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Of the kits that you have, I'd definitely start with the 1/350 Fletcher. It's one of the near-universal recommendations for a first kit, and for good reason. Although its 5" turrets (gunhouses) are a bit under scale, the instructions are good and the parts all fit basically perfectly. If they don't seem to fit, you're probably doing something wrong. My advice would be to build it out the box, don't bother with PE, etc for the first one. If you really like that particular ship, you can easily afford a second one - at $25 or so, it's not like undertaking a second 1/200 Bismarck! For a first PE set, try one of the Gold Medal ones. Again, the instructions are excellent (some PE sets have absolutely terrible instructions) and like the Tamiya Fletcher, everything fits perfectly if you followed the directions.

As far as the Dremel goes, I don't think it's necessary for ship models, at least not the injection plastic stuff. I have a Dremel, and it has been used a lot for model railroading, but I've only used it once for ships. That was when I was scratchbuilding some brass masts and needed to basically have a tiny lathe to turn the brass rod to a taper. That task also required a speed control, since 25,000 RPM is not what you want for that sort of thing. Speed control is an absolute must if you're going to use the Dremel on plastic, because almost any prolonged work on plastic at 25k rpm will turn the plastic into a gooey mess.

For PE, you almost certainly want a hard plastic surface to cut against - a simple 8x8" piece of Lucite will do, even an old CD although the CD is probably a bit inconvenient for railings and the like. Some folks use single-edge razor blades, but I find that a curved X-acto (or X-acto-like) blade is far easier to use. Mine happen to be Excel, but they look like Xacto #10. I use a Small Shop "Bug" PE folding tool, and I am quite happy with it. Others think that using two single-sided razor blades is easier or better, but that wasn't for me. And you'll probably want some small brushes for applying PVA or Gator glue and a CA applicator. Other than the PE folding tool, nothing expensive or even unusual. Even the Bug was $35 or so.

On the airbrush - I don't see the need for three airbrushes (in the kit?). I'd much rather spend the same money on one good one - perhaps an Iwata NEO, but there are plenty of others. Don't forget cleaning supplies. A dirty airbrush of any quality works terribly. (Ask yourself how I might come to know this...) A cleaning station / stand was a revelation when I got one. And you should consider how you'll get air - the propellant cans get super-expensive after not much airbrushing.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:51 am 
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@ blw
Thanks for the great advice. I will go with the Fletcher first, out of the box, without PE.
I think I'll practice painting on that too, after all it was $23 after all.

I got the Graff Spee and PE quite cheap too, well under $100 for the lot, so I dont mind that being my first PE effort.
I'll get one of the folding stations if I cant seem to manage with a straight edge and razor.

For obvious reasons, I'll hold off even thinking about the Bissy till I'm comfortable with the skills.

Check on the Dremel, I wont buy it till I feel I need it.
I was looking at the PE cutting system and think I'll just make my own.

The compressor is being offered as a set with the airbrushes, (Master Airbrush Multi-purpose Professional Airbrushing System)
I was wondering if anyone here has used the brand and had any feedback.

Once again thanks for the help. Cant wait to get started.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA, USA
Helm wrote:
I got the Graff Spee and PE quite cheap too, well under $100 for the lot, so I dont mind that being my first PE effort.

I was looking at the PE cutting system and think I'll just make my own.

The compressor is being offered as a set with the airbrushes, (Master Airbrush Multi-purpose Professional Airbrushing System)
I was wondering if anyone here has used the brand and had any feedback.

Which PE set do you have? Some are much, much easier to work with than others. Another peculiarity about the instructions is that some of them make the assumption that you know a great deal about the prototype (the real one). For many of us, that is not really the case, although of course some us may have actually served for years aboard a given ship. Having never been to sea, my knowledge is strictly limited to reading, and I just don't know enough to follow some of the directions properly.

PE cutting system: I bought one, but when it arrived I decided that I could make my own rather trivially. As in, a trip to the store for some Lucite and - literally - about 10 minutes of cutting and gluing some flat and round plastic stock. For about $3.

Airbrush: I've been around airbrushes and modeling since the mid-1970s, and I've never heard of this brand. This is not to say that it's terrible or anything, but I it is not particularly common. (Again, not a value judgement: it may be brand new to the market.) However, a pretty basic well-known brush such as the Badger 350 runs $56 at good discounts, I have to wonder just what you're getting when the package has three air brushes AND a compressor.

I am hardly an expert at airbrushes, but I'll offer the following. First, particularly for smaller scales, I'd recommend a gravity feed brush, since that allows you to mix and use a very small amount of paint - no waste. Do the siphon feed ones work too? Oh sure, and if you're usually going to mix and apply a half ounce of paint at a time (Pullman Green on six 1:48 85's rail passenger cars!), no worries. But you sure won't be putting a half ounce of any individual paint onto a 1/700 ship, not even primer or hull red.

Particularly with an airbrush, my advice is to get a known quantity, since you are coming to this with no previous background. More than once I've thought that I was just #### at X, only to discover later that I had inappropriate tools. One of those times was with soldering, and the #2 experience was an airbrush. I thought it was pretty hard - until my wife said, more or less, "hey silly, you're working too hard. go get MY airbrush and it'll go a lot easier." She was right. (She also subsequently told me "hey that's mine, get your own.") Hers was an Iwata Eclipse (she is an artist, which explains much of the previous statement) and yes, it was a lot easier than my low-end airbrush. I did buy myself an Iwata after a while, which is one reason that I mentioned an Iwata NEO, which is their entry-level family. There are plenty of other good airbrushes, from Paasche, Badger, etc. I'm limiting my comments to my direct experience (although I do have a Paasche siphon-feed too).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:14 am 
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Once again, thanks for the great advice!!

I've been in the Merchant Marine for the last 20 years or so but know nothing about PE.
I seem to have gotten a PONTOS wooden deck and a MK 1 PE for the 1/350 Graff Spee.
(I've been collecting for years and had to dig it out of stash to look it up)
I dont mind learning on this but the whole thing looks incredibly fragile and complicated and I am getting jittery just at the thought of having to work with it. LOL.

This is what I found. But looking at the other prices, you are right. It sounds too good to be true, and usually is worse.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006HJCP8S/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1511ZZLN63JM0&coliid=I21WELJH071IN6

So I'm now looking at the IWATA Ninja compressor
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002JLVM5U/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1511ZZLN63JM0&coliid=I2B421841VPA7T

and the NEO CN brush
https://www.amazon.com/Gravity-Feed-Dual-Action-Airbrush/dp/B004INERK4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1469173250&sr=8-1&keywords=Iwata+NEO

What do you think?

At this point I probably should add that I live in India, where service and replacement parts for this stuff does not exist, so reliability and durability are paramount.
In which case, what spares would I need for the airbrush?

I did find some good local acrylic paints here, so hopefully I wont have to ship those too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:55 am 
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Hi Helm, Welcome!!!

I just wanted to let you know that I bought that little Master air compressor from Amazon and I love it! I can't say anything about the air guns because all I bought was the compressor (I think I paid about $65 for it) alone. You do need a cheap adapter to attach the air gun to the compressor hose, but you can get this from Amazon too for a couple bucks. As far as the compressor goes, it works fine, it's quiet, and portable. I'd buy another one in a minute.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:02 am 
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..


Last edited by carr on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:56 pm 
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Quote:
At this point I probably should add that I live in India, where service and replacement parts for this stuff does not exist, so reliability and durability are paramount. ... In which case, what spares would I need for the airbrush?

I am pretty confident in saying that Iwata stuff is pretty reliable and durable. My wife's Eclipse is bordering on 30 years old now and still works fine (as long, ahem, as I keep it clean). But if you're ordering and want to get everything at once, you might consider an extra needle and fluid nozzle. Those are the parts that are easiest to goof up - and if they're not right, the brush just isn't. The nozzle is technically a consumable part, although my wife thinks she's worn out one or maybe two in 30 years; most folks I know have never replaced them. A needle or fluid nozzle (on any airbrush) is easy enough to goof up by dropping it just wrong. I don't think anything else on the brush would need to be replaced barring abuse.

The Iwarta NEOs are their entry level brushes, and the CN does appear to be the one I'd start with in that line. It is a gravity feed, double action (ie air and paint controlled by the one trigger control) brush, which is what I think most people prefer. (I prefer my double-action Iwata to my single-action Paasche.)

I don't have an opinion of the Ninja compressor. I have an Iwata SmartJet and it is definitely more than adequate - I also have no experience with any other compressor. Bob's suggestion of using a hydrogen cylinder is quite reasonable, although I have no idea how available that might be in India (and of course India is a very big place).

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:20 am 
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Last edited by carr on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Oops! Yes, just ask the Hindenburg crew...! :doh_1:

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Laid down: BB-63 Missouri
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:21 pm 
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That nitrogen cylinder idea is a good one, thanks. I was considering propellant cans but never the big cylinder. Definitely will look into it.

And copy on the nozzle, will get a spare.

I was doing some research in the local art shops and as it turns out, everything is available, albeit at 4 times the price you would pay on Amazon. :mad_1:
Good thing is that I am in the States thrice a year on average but carrying things back is a pain. LOL.

I also found some water based acrylic primer and some good paints, now just need the brush system to try it all out.

Could you gents also suggest some kits (base & PE) to move on to after the Fletcher/Graff Spee.
My sourcing for this kinda stuff takes about 6 months. LOL.

Thanks once again.

Helm


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:34 pm 
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> Could you gents also suggest some kits (base & PE) to move on to after the Fletcher/Graff Spee.

I think you said that the Graf Spee PE set was a Pontos set? They are awesome, but they are also massive and parts of them can be very fiddly. They build into really amazing models, but they aren't beginner material (or, IMHO, even intermediate). The Pontos directions are also a bit toward the tougher side, too, as they tend to be diagramatic and very little text. I have one Pontos set myself (HMS King George V), and I started it pretty early - I put it away and I'm planning to return to it later this year. If I'm not mistaken, my set has about 1100 parts - that's on top of the base kit.

What sort of subjects interest you? There are many kits and there's no point in directing you toward something in which you don't have an interest.

> Good thing is that I am in the States thrice a year on average but carrying things back is a pain.

At least the brush and its supplies are very small and not much trouble to carry. A compressor or tank would be a wholly different story, of course.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:40 am 
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Morning Gents,

Actually the Graf Spee PE is a MK1 set. I opened it up and took a look at the instructions. Looks doable, I guess I'll find out when I attempt it.

My favorite subject would be the DKM. I want, at some point to get a 1/700 Prinz Eugen (does it exist?) to keep my 1/700 Bissy company.
Also been looking at the Russian WW1 Gangut. So I'll probably get those for stash.
Need to find out who does the PE for those. (Some research for the day)

The acrylic paints I got worked very well on top of some (not so good) primer I found.
So I'm going to have to source the primer from amazon or something.
Been thinking of

https://www.amazon.com/Badger-Air-Brush-SNR-410-Stynylrez-Polyurethane/dp/B00K3KGUME/ref=pd_rhf_sc_p_img_10?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YCTVTQ2S0BW0GJ9DRBG4

Any opinions?

I did read sargentx' excellent post on the theory of color mixing.
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=157447
Very educational.
Its amazing that I've been using the same principles to paint ships for years (1:1 scale) and didn't know the theory behind it.

I mixed up a DKM dark grey for the Bissy hull. I think I might have gotten the color right, but the shade is off. What do you think?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:34 am 
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Thats the best primer out there!

Cheers, Jabb

PS. Check out Harder & Steenbeck Ultra - much easier to maintain than Iwata;

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:16 am 
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Both Tamiya and Trumpeter make a 1/700 Prinz Eugen. Here's a review of the Tamiya kit:

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... gen-bu.htm

Tamiya seems to have more than one "family" or line - some of them are nothing to write home about (1/700 Nelson, 1/700 Z39), but some (the 1/350 Fletcher, 1/350 KGV, 1/700 Saratoga and apparently this 1/700 Prinz Eugen) are very precise, very high quality efforts.

There seems to be a variety of PE sets for this ship, although you'll need to pick which year you want to represent - I think the Tamiya comes out of the box in 1945 fit.

I can't comment on the accuracy of your color.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:53 am 
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I have an Iwata Eclipse (for finer work) and a Badger 150 for larger jobs. I've been very satisfied with both of them and with regular cleaning - by that I mean after every use - they have been trouble free so far. I could recommend either without hesitation. Also, instead of X-Acto or other hobby knives I would go on Evilbay and get yourself a scalpel handle or two and some packs of blades, I'd suggest a #10 and a #11. That should cover most, if not all of your needs. I find them to be much better to work with than dedicated hobby knives and they are a great deal cheaper on Evilbay.

Bob

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Good day all,

Many thanks yet again for all the great advice in here.

I've found a local compressor and paints, settled on the NEO CN airbrush, isolated the primer, dropped the DREMEL, ordered a scalpel and the 1/700 Prinz Eugen, all on advice garnered here.

As I mentioned before, I have a 1/200 Bismarck in stock, now looking for an upgrade set.
Cannot decide between the PONTOS Deluxe or KA Deluxe. Which would you recommend?

Also would it be worth getting any other aftermarket upgrade? Masts, guns etc?

Thanks,

Helm


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:51 pm 
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I can't really comment on the choice between Pontos and KA - having read reviews of both, they seem to be sprawling sets that cover almost anything conceivable other than rigging. They certainly include brass barrels. Generally if I need to do anything with masts, I scratchbuild at least the basic parts (say, the tripod) from brass wire or brass rod (I suppose in 1/200 it may even be possible to use small brass tube), soldering the main joints. The rest is usually in a PE kit. Brass is far, far more durable than plastic and it is far easier to rig as a proper solder joint will hold better than any glue or adhesive.

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