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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:10 pm 
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I need advice. I used to do all my rigging with nylon monofilament (Dai-Riki #9 mostly, a 0.002" nominal diameter). This is no longer available. But larger size threads don't look as good in 1/700 scale. I tried some Modelkasten fine wire (similar size to Dai-Riki #9), and it's OK, but doesn't knot all that well and it's fairly expensive. I took the plunge and picked up some Ultrafine Lycra Rigging (Infini Model, made in Korea). It's rated at 0.048 mm which converts to about 0.0019", or basically the same diameter as Dai-Riki #9. Laying it down next to some Dai-Riki #8 (0.003"), the Lycra is definitely smaller in diameter to the naked eye (looking through an Optivisor).

What I find is that, where nylon was stiff, Lycra is flimsy. (It's moving around when I breathe on it sort of like spider web strands.) For example, when I try to make an over and under knot, the Lycra doesn't want to make a stable loop. Instead it twists and curls, and I run out of fingers trying to untangle it while keeping a loop there to pass the free end through. It also is giving me trouble trying to pass the free end through some three bar railing. Furthermore, even when I just try to cut a length, it doesn't usually just lay there in a gentle arc on my work table. I can get little curly clumps of thread that I'm never sure are going to pull back apart to a smooth single strand.

So, I'm asking for help. Are there things I should be doing that I don't know about? Should I pre-work or pre-treat the Lycra in some fashion to get better behavior? Looking for any tips or tricks that are out there.

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:05 am 
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DaveK
I agree about your opinions about Lycra. I used it years ago but went on to other methods. I tried it again recently to use it up. I used it for signal flag lines but found out that it got extra loops and hard to keep all the strands straight. So it is back n the box again. To add to your list, I have been using paint brush bristles (new brush) for some of the standing rigging.
George


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:43 pm 
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George W wrote:
DaveK
I agree about your opinions about Lycra. I used it years ago but went on to other methods. I tried it again recently to use it up. I used it for signal flag lines but found out that it got extra loops and hard to keep all the strands straight. So it is back n the box again. To add to your list, I have been using paint brush bristles (new brush) for some of the standing rigging.
George

Thanks George. I hope some people will chime in with some more encouraging experiences. The Modelkasten wire I've been using is also apparently out of production (the 0.04 mm H-5 and H-7 that were similar to Dai-Riki #9). I think they were only issued by Modelkasten as a "limited edition" product. I think the Dai-Riki #8 that I have tons of is finer than paint brush bristles... (I literally have miles of this on a "giant" spool that I got from a manufacturer - in the case of 0.003" monofilament a "giant" spool is only about 3" tall).

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Well I tried the Lycra on 1/700 builds and found human hair (courtesy my wifes hair brush) to be a better solution. On my 1/350 and larger builds I use Fly tying thread in 20 and 70 Denier....made in America by "Danvilles" MAGA. Lays flat doesnt curl as much and takes CA adhesives quickly


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Here is a photo of my 1/720 Italeri Deutschland/Lutzow build (in progress) focused on rigging. I am trying to find a suitable replacement for Dai-Riki #9 nylon monofilament (0.002" diameter, so very fine, but still relatively stiff).

On this build I have used Infini ultrafine Lycra thread (I have white and black spools of this), along with Modelkasten 0.04 (H-7) metal wire (0.04 mm or 0.0016" roughly, so equivalent to Dai-Riki #9), and 0.003" nylon monofilament (I have two sources, Dai-Riki #8 and some from a domestic thread supplier - basically a lifetime supply for several modelers and then some).

This size Modelkasten wire has been discontinued as has the Dai-Riki nylon monofilament line. So, I'm trying to figure out if I can make the Infini model Lycra rigging work. For those unfamiliar with Lycra, it is an elastic polymer, so it stretches out significantly in tension (when pulled) much like a rubber band. Nylon monofilament is closer to copper wire (very little stretching when pulled).

I started around the giant pole mast superstructure. I laid Modelkasten wire horizontally around the perimeter of the large X-spar and tacked it down with superglue (no knots). I then attempted to rig three flag lines from railings on both sides of the bridge running up to the Modelkasten wire. The picture shows the port side, where I have three Lycra lines in place. This required about 6-8 attempts, as I pulled the wire off a couple times and had to reattach it (leading to a build up of glue at the tips of the X-spar) and as I also sliced the wire in half along with some of the Lycra lines trying to trim the end of the knots off (you can see in the photo, circled, that one of these is still poorly trimmed). I use a cuticle snipper from the women's beauty supply section of the grocery store to trim knots. It's always worked well with nylon monofilament, but the Lycra is putting up more of a fight (I think it squeezes when the snipper jaws close on it, but doesn't snap). A friend of mine has suggested that I try a razor blade, but it's awfully close quarters.

On the starboard side, I declared defeat after multiple attempts to run the three flag lines. The forward of the three lines is white Lycra, but the other two flag lines are 0.003" nylon monofilament. My opinion: the knots of the monofilament onto the wire look enormous compared to those on the all Lycra side, but it was sure a lot easier to run the lines using monofilament. Kind of a similar problem with the nylon monofilament that I used to brace the foremast spar diagonally up to the top - I don't think the line itself looks that bad, but the knots are far from delicate looking.

I switched to the long runs between masts, and I went with the black Lycra ultrafine thread. This went considerably better than the flag lines (more room to work, and more out in the open), though it was still more difficult than using nylon monofilament. I tied a knot at each spar tip as I ran the line from bow to stern. The knots aren't too bad looking, especially considering that the thread doesn't always want to pull snug around the spar when pulling from both ends (remember it's like a rubber band, so instead of passing line through the knot loop, some of the tension just goes into stretching out the long runs (temporarily - it snaps back pretty well when you let go).

All through this, I keep thinking there has to be a better way. Are knots really needed? The Lycra is so flimsy that it's not going to pull itself off the attachment points in my opinion.

FYI: I also tried to run the flag lines with Modelkasten wire. It is too stiff to loop over another section of the wire and pull a knot where the hole is as small as the wire diameter - so you get a hanging doughnut going that route. Similarly, while I can attach the wire to larger objects like spars just by tacking it with superglue (no knots), there wasn't enough contact area between two pieces of the wire to glue the end of one piece to the middle of the other and have it stick.

Anyway, I'm thinking through the ramifications for my future builds (perhaps a combination of wire and Lycra; the Modelkasten 0.046 mm wire is still available, and I have some on order to see how it compares to the 0.04 that I'm using).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:04 pm 
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If you want finesse and sag...( where desired! ) :cool_2:

albeit at the price of delicate handling (!) ...

Try also using stretched sprue !

I can pull it rather finer than human hair ( at least my daughters! )

and does not exert mast distorting tensions

see here for tutorial

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37536

and latest 2 1/ 700 models rigged with sprue

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... /index.htm



HTH

Sprue mad JIM B

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:03 pm 
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JIM BAUMANN wrote:
If you want finesse and sag...( where desired! ) :cool_2:

albeit at the price of delicate handling (!) ...

Try also using stretched sprue !

I can pull it rather finer than human hair ( at least my daughters! )

and does not exert mast distorting tensions

see here for tutorial

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37536

and latest 2 1/ 700 models rigged with sprue

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... /index.htm



HTH

Sprue mad JIM B

Thanks for your comments.

The ultra-fine Lycra thread is so small in diameter that it doesn't really pull with any force to speak of on the masts and spars, so I'm not getting any deflection in those parts as I rig with it. Lycra is more like a wet noddle that stretches, but mostly just likes to slump around in no particular direction.

I just can't get motivated to do the fine stretched sprue, though other folks have made it look good. Anyway, that's one of the reasons that I'm looking for other people's tips on using Lycra.

I'm also leary of using hair (human or otherwise), because it is a biological material and I'm concerned about the long term stability of it.

Dave


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:39 pm 
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So, I tracked down one tip, and I've been testing it. It does seem to make rigging with lycra a good bit easier then what I was doing (working with pre-cut lengths). The tip is to keep the lycra thread on the spool as you run the rigging lines. Pick a start point. Unspool enough lycra tread to allow you enough freedom of play to tack the end of the line to where you want the rigging run to start using a little super glue. Let dry. Then unspool enough lycra to move to the second attachment point, set the lycra at the desired point and anchor it there with a little tension from the spool and then tack it down with super glue. It you're done with rigging at those points, then after it's all dry, snip the ends off and you're done.

Alternately, you can also keep going to a third, fourth, etc attachment point, tacking at each with some super glue. I think it's OK to have a little tension in the lycra when you tack it, but I try not to have a lot of tension in it in case it were to pull lose from the spar/super glue. Basically, just enough tension to take out the sag or other non-linear shapes you might get using lycra (which likes to curl up on itself in various shapes when it is not in tension).

A caution - don't let the lycra line drap through the super glue (which should be placed on the spar or mast, not on the thread), because it will potentially pick up some super glue that causes the dragged section of the lycra line to get very rigid after the super glue dries, and the line may not be rigid in the same direction that the line is supposed to be running (i.e. you may get a kink in the line).

Still looking for more tips if anyone has some.

Dave


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:12 pm 
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I haven't tried this but read the suggestion somewhere: use polyester fibers from a cheapo long-hair Halloween wig - brown, black, or white, but not green! Or red!
:wave_1:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:32 pm 
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biggles2 wrote:
I haven't tried this but read the suggestion somewhere: use polyester fibers from a cheapo long-hair Halloween wig - brown, black, or white, but not green! Or red!
:wave_1:

I want to rig with line that is no larger than 0.002" in diameter. Such material is extremely hard to find (trust me that I've looked, and occasionally thought I'd found something, but when I get it on my work bench it fails to live up to expectations).

I have a giant spool of nylon monofilament that is 0.003" in diameter (over a mile of it). It would work great on a 1/350 scale model, but just doesn't look quite fine enough on a 1/700 scale model (IMO). The smallest Modelkasten wire that I've found is close to, if not smaller than, 0.002" in diameter, and it is something that I'm using more and more. Knotting it is problematic even though it is quite flexible at that small a diameter. Nevertheless, it looks pretty good using it without knots.

I suspect that wig hair is larger than 0.003" diameter material based on comparing 0.002" thread to my own natural hair. I ask other modelers who do some fine rigging lines in their work (like antenna wires on airplanes or the rigging between wing struts on biplanes) as to what they're using. When I track it down, it is typically in the 0.003-0.005" diameter range. It looks fine on what they've done, but I can rule it out for my own use once I get the diameter.

I also don't want to try to make my own material using stretched sprue. I like having a constant diameter for my lines, and I'm not sure how you get that consistency when making stretched sprue.

So, that's a little bit more background on where I'm coming from with this Lycra thread, because the Infini ultrafine lycra line is in the vicinity of 0.002" diameter. It looks good once I get it where I want it. My problem has been learning how to work with it when it wants to curl up on itself all the time. Keeping one end on the spool has helped reduce the curling aspect.

Dave


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:21 am 
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I admire your determination for scale fidelity!

'm not sure how you get that consistency when making stretched sprue.


alas as everything in life and modelmaking rigging, there is a compromise :cool_2:

If I understand your question correctly ; consistency within a given piece of line?
or consistency throughout all rigging?

Bearing in kind that the real ship diameter of wire rigging for mast supporting. stays, yard arm supports, radio antennae ariesl etc all varies--sometimes considerably -
according to tensional loads
and that signal halyards will be much thinner than boat boom supporting lines

etc etc...

I think your quest with Lycra is a good one-- though anything that requires sag ( braces , antennae-- then its wire or sprue.

to get sprue consistent --within a piece-- the trick is to -- when heating... not pull from both ends--

but to attach one end and pull from one end only ( this prevents intermittent cooling resulting in uneven thickness)

step by step images in link below)


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37536

It used to best illustrated in the video here, alas the photobucket murderous cull has now disabled it...(!!)

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:34 pm 
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An unexpected positive for Lycra rigging.

I had put my model of the DKM Deutschland (discussed elsewhere in this thread) in a display case and took it to our 2017 Regionals. While opening the case (one of those Hobby Lobby acrylic cases) which was sticking a bit, my hand jerked, and I knocked the top half of the foremast/superstructure assembly loose from everything else. Argh! (About the only thing memorable that happened that day.)

The surprise was that none of the Lycra rigging broke, either up and down in the form of signal flag lines, or fore and aft between the foremast and the mast work on the aft side of the funnel. I was able to make repairs once I got the ship home without having to redo any of the Lycra rigging. If half or more of the rigging had broken loose, then I might have just put the model in the junk drawer and moved on (given how fiddly some of the lines I'd tried to run were).

Dave

PS I have tried the "rig straight from the spool method" now on a 1/700 WW2 US destroyer kit for the fore and aft runs, and it went quite smoothly (I didn't do any knots, just anchored each contact point with superglue, waited for it to dry, and then moved on to the next). I'm concluding that technique is the real key to working with the Ultrafine Lycra rigging thread.


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