The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:58 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
I need advice. I used to do all my rigging with nylon monofilament (Dai-Riki #9 mostly, a 0.002" nominal diameter). This is no longer available. But larger size threads don't look as good in 1/700 scale. I tried some Modelkasten fine wire (similar size to Dai-Riki #9), and it's OK, but doesn't knot all that well and it's fairly expensive. I took the plunge and picked up some Ultrafine Lycra Rigging (Infini Model, made in Korea). It's rated at 0.048 mm which converts to about 0.0019", or basically the same diameter as Dai-Riki #9. Laying it down next to some Dai-Riki #8 (0.003"), the Lycra is definitely smaller in diameter to the naked eye (looking through an Optivisor).

What I find is that, where nylon was stiff, Lycra is flimsy. (It's moving around when I breathe on it sort of like spider web strands.) For example, when I try to make an over and under knot, the Lycra doesn't want to make a stable loop. Instead it twists and curls, and I run out of fingers trying to untangle it while keeping a loop there to pass the free end through. It also is giving me trouble trying to pass the free end through some three bar railing. Furthermore, even when I just try to cut a length, it doesn't usually just lay there in a gentle arc on my work table. I can get little curly clumps of thread that I'm never sure are going to pull back apart to a smooth single strand.

So, I'm asking for help. Are there things I should be doing that I don't know about? Should I pre-work or pre-treat the Lycra in some fashion to get better behavior? Looking for any tips or tricks that are out there.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:38 pm
Posts: 275
DaveK
I agree about your opinions about Lycra. I used it years ago but went on to other methods. I tried it again recently to use it up. I used it for signal flag lines but found out that it got extra loops and hard to keep all the strands straight. So it is back n the box again. To add to your list, I have been using paint brush bristles (new brush) for some of the standing rigging.
George


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
George W wrote:
DaveK
I agree about your opinions about Lycra. I used it years ago but went on to other methods. I tried it again recently to use it up. I used it for signal flag lines but found out that it got extra loops and hard to keep all the strands straight. So it is back n the box again. To add to your list, I have been using paint brush bristles (new brush) for some of the standing rigging.
George

Thanks George. I hope some people will chime in with some more encouraging experiences. The Modelkasten wire I've been using is also apparently out of production (the 0.04 mm H-5 and H-7 that were similar to Dai-Riki #9). I think they were only issued by Modelkasten as a "limited edition" product. I think the Dai-Riki #8 that I have tons of is finer than paint brush bristles... (I literally have miles of this on a "giant" spool that I got from a manufacturer - in the case of 0.003" monofilament a "giant" spool is only about 3" tall).

Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:51 am
Posts: 382
Location: S.C.
Well I tried the Lycra on 1/700 builds and found human hair (courtesy my wifes hair brush) to be a better solution. On my 1/350 and larger builds I use Fly tying thread in 20 and 70 Denier....made in America by "Danvilles" MAGA. Lays flat doesnt curl as much and takes CA adhesives quickly


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
Here is a photo of my 1/720 Italeri Deutschland/Lutzow build (in progress) focused on rigging. I am trying to find a suitable replacement for Dai-Riki #9 nylon monofilament (0.002" diameter, so very fine, but still relatively stiff).

On this build I have used Infini ultrafine Lycra thread (I have white and black spools of this), along with Modelkasten 0.04 (H-7) metal wire (0.04 mm or 0.0016" roughly, so equivalent to Dai-Riki #9), and 0.003" nylon monofilament (I have two sources, Dai-Riki #8 and some from a domestic thread supplier - basically a lifetime supply for several modelers and then some).

This size Modelkasten wire has been discontinued as has the Dai-Riki nylon monofilament line. So, I'm trying to figure out if I can make the Infini model Lycra rigging work. For those unfamiliar with Lycra, it is an elastic polymer, so it stretches out significantly in tension (when pulled) much like a rubber band. Nylon monofilament is closer to copper wire (very little stretching when pulled).

I started around the giant pole mast superstructure. I laid Modelkasten wire horizontally around the perimeter of the large X-spar and tacked it down with superglue (no knots). I then attempted to rig three flag lines from railings on both sides of the bridge running up to the Modelkasten wire. The picture shows the port side, where I have three Lycra lines in place. This required about 6-8 attempts, as I pulled the wire off a couple times and had to reattach it (leading to a build up of glue at the tips of the X-spar) and as I also sliced the wire in half along with some of the Lycra lines trying to trim the end of the knots off (you can see in the photo, circled, that one of these is still poorly trimmed). I use a cuticle snipper from the women's beauty supply section of the grocery store to trim knots. It's always worked well with nylon monofilament, but the Lycra is putting up more of a fight (I think it squeezes when the snipper jaws close on it, but doesn't snap). A friend of mine has suggested that I try a razor blade, but it's awfully close quarters.

On the starboard side, I declared defeat after multiple attempts to run the three flag lines. The forward of the three lines is white Lycra, but the other two flag lines are 0.003" nylon monofilament. My opinion: the knots of the monofilament onto the wire look enormous compared to those on the all Lycra side, but it was sure a lot easier to run the lines using monofilament. Kind of a similar problem with the nylon monofilament that I used to brace the foremast spar diagonally up to the top - I don't think the line itself looks that bad, but the knots are far from delicate looking.

I switched to the long runs between masts, and I went with the black Lycra ultrafine thread. This went considerably better than the flag lines (more room to work, and more out in the open), though it was still more difficult than using nylon monofilament. I tied a knot at each spar tip as I ran the line from bow to stern. The knots aren't too bad looking, especially considering that the thread doesn't always want to pull snug around the spar when pulling from both ends (remember it's like a rubber band, so instead of passing line through the knot loop, some of the tension just goes into stretching out the long runs (temporarily - it snaps back pretty well when you let go).

All through this, I keep thinking there has to be a better way. Are knots really needed? The Lycra is so flimsy that it's not going to pull itself off the attachment points in my opinion.

FYI: I also tried to run the flag lines with Modelkasten wire. It is too stiff to loop over another section of the wire and pull a knot where the hole is as small as the wire diameter - so you get a hanging doughnut going that route. Similarly, while I can attach the wire to larger objects like spars just by tacking it with superglue (no knots), there wasn't enough contact area between two pieces of the wire to glue the end of one piece to the middle of the other and have it stick.

Anyway, I'm thinking through the ramifications for my future builds (perhaps a combination of wire and Lycra; the Modelkasten 0.046 mm wire is still available, and I have some on order to see how it compares to the 0.04 that I'm using).


Attachments:
Deutsch lycra side.jpg
Deutsch lycra side.jpg [ 132.3 KiB | Viewed 6839 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:30 pm
Posts: 5369
Location: Nr Southampton England
If you want finesse and sag...( where desired! ) :cool_2:

albeit at the price of delicate handling (!) ...

Try also using stretched sprue !

I can pull it rather finer than human hair ( at least my daughters! )

and does not exert mast distorting tensions

see here for tutorial

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37536

and latest 2 1/ 700 models rigged with sprue

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... /index.htm



HTH

Sprue mad JIM B

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
JIM BAUMANN wrote:
If you want finesse and sag...( where desired! ) :cool_2:

albeit at the price of delicate handling (!) ...

Try also using stretched sprue !

I can pull it rather finer than human hair ( at least my daughters! )

and does not exert mast distorting tensions

see here for tutorial

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37536

and latest 2 1/ 700 models rigged with sprue

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... /index.htm



HTH

Sprue mad JIM B

Thanks for your comments.

The ultra-fine Lycra thread is so small in diameter that it doesn't really pull with any force to speak of on the masts and spars, so I'm not getting any deflection in those parts as I rig with it. Lycra is more like a wet noddle that stretches, but mostly just likes to slump around in no particular direction.

I just can't get motivated to do the fine stretched sprue, though other folks have made it look good. Anyway, that's one of the reasons that I'm looking for other people's tips on using Lycra.

I'm also leary of using hair (human or otherwise), because it is a biological material and I'm concerned about the long term stability of it.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
So, I tracked down one tip, and I've been testing it. It does seem to make rigging with lycra a good bit easier then what I was doing (working with pre-cut lengths). The tip is to keep the lycra thread on the spool as you run the rigging lines. Pick a start point. Unspool enough lycra tread to allow you enough freedom of play to tack the end of the line to where you want the rigging run to start using a little super glue. Let dry. Then unspool enough lycra to move to the second attachment point, set the lycra at the desired point and anchor it there with a little tension from the spool and then tack it down with super glue. It you're done with rigging at those points, then after it's all dry, snip the ends off and you're done.

Alternately, you can also keep going to a third, fourth, etc attachment point, tacking at each with some super glue. I think it's OK to have a little tension in the lycra when you tack it, but I try not to have a lot of tension in it in case it were to pull lose from the spar/super glue. Basically, just enough tension to take out the sag or other non-linear shapes you might get using lycra (which likes to curl up on itself in various shapes when it is not in tension).

A caution - don't let the lycra line drap through the super glue (which should be placed on the spar or mast, not on the thread), because it will potentially pick up some super glue that causes the dragged section of the lycra line to get very rigid after the super glue dries, and the line may not be rigid in the same direction that the line is supposed to be running (i.e. you may get a kink in the line).

Still looking for more tips if anyone has some.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 1:50 pm
Posts: 1980
I haven't tried this but read the suggestion somewhere: use polyester fibers from a cheapo long-hair Halloween wig - brown, black, or white, but not green! Or red!
:wave_1:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
biggles2 wrote:
I haven't tried this but read the suggestion somewhere: use polyester fibers from a cheapo long-hair Halloween wig - brown, black, or white, but not green! Or red!
:wave_1:

I want to rig with line that is no larger than 0.002" in diameter. Such material is extremely hard to find (trust me that I've looked, and occasionally thought I'd found something, but when I get it on my work bench it fails to live up to expectations).

I have a giant spool of nylon monofilament that is 0.003" in diameter (over a mile of it). It would work great on a 1/350 scale model, but just doesn't look quite fine enough on a 1/700 scale model (IMO). The smallest Modelkasten wire that I've found is close to, if not smaller than, 0.002" in diameter, and it is something that I'm using more and more. Knotting it is problematic even though it is quite flexible at that small a diameter. Nevertheless, it looks pretty good using it without knots.

I suspect that wig hair is larger than 0.003" diameter material based on comparing 0.002" thread to my own natural hair. I ask other modelers who do some fine rigging lines in their work (like antenna wires on airplanes or the rigging between wing struts on biplanes) as to what they're using. When I track it down, it is typically in the 0.003-0.005" diameter range. It looks fine on what they've done, but I can rule it out for my own use once I get the diameter.

I also don't want to try to make my own material using stretched sprue. I like having a constant diameter for my lines, and I'm not sure how you get that consistency when making stretched sprue.

So, that's a little bit more background on where I'm coming from with this Lycra thread, because the Infini ultrafine lycra line is in the vicinity of 0.002" diameter. It looks good once I get it where I want it. My problem has been learning how to work with it when it wants to curl up on itself all the time. Keeping one end on the spool has helped reduce the curling aspect.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:30 pm
Posts: 5369
Location: Nr Southampton England
I admire your determination for scale fidelity!

'm not sure how you get that consistency when making stretched sprue.


alas as everything in life and modelmaking rigging, there is a compromise :cool_2:

If I understand your question correctly ; consistency within a given piece of line?
or consistency throughout all rigging?

Bearing in kind that the real ship diameter of wire rigging for mast supporting. stays, yard arm supports, radio antennae ariesl etc all varies--sometimes considerably -
according to tensional loads
and that signal halyards will be much thinner than boat boom supporting lines

etc etc...

I think your quest with Lycra is a good one-- though anything that requires sag ( braces , antennae-- then its wire or sprue.

to get sprue consistent --within a piece-- the trick is to -- when heating... not pull from both ends--

but to attach one end and pull from one end only ( this prevents intermittent cooling resulting in uneven thickness)

step by step images in link below)


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37536

It used to best illustrated in the video here, alas the photobucket murderous cull has now disabled it...(!!)

_________________
....I buy them at three times the speed I build 'em.... will I live long enough to empty my stash...?
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

IPMS UK SIG (special interest group) www.finewaterline.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
An unexpected positive for Lycra rigging.

I had put my model of the DKM Deutschland (discussed elsewhere in this thread) in a display case and took it to our 2017 Regionals. While opening the case (one of those Hobby Lobby acrylic cases) which was sticking a bit, my hand jerked, and I knocked the top half of the foremast/superstructure assembly loose from everything else. Argh! (About the only thing memorable that happened that day.)

The surprise was that none of the Lycra rigging broke, either up and down in the form of signal flag lines, or fore and aft between the foremast and the mast work on the aft side of the funnel. I was able to make repairs once I got the ship home without having to redo any of the Lycra rigging. If half or more of the rigging had broken loose, then I might have just put the model in the junk drawer and moved on (given how fiddly some of the lines I'd tried to run were).

Dave

PS I have tried the "rig straight from the spool method" now on a 1/700 WW2 US destroyer kit for the fore and aft runs, and it went quite smoothly (I didn't do any knots, just anchored each contact point with superglue, waited for it to dry, and then moved on to the next). I'm concluding that technique is the real key to working with the Ultrafine Lycra rigging thread.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:21 pm
Posts: 3374
Location: equidistant to everywhere
I used Infini 20, 40 and 70 denier rigging line on 1/200 scale battleship model. I have some observations:

1. They are very elastic. So you don't have to cut the rigging lines to precisely the right length, You can make them 5mm short and then easily stretch them to make them fit.

2. If you use fine lycra lines, such as 20 or 40 denier, they are so fine that even if you stretch the lycra quite a bit to while installing them, they would not pull very much on the masts and will not distort them.

3. If you really want scale accuracy in thickness of rigging line in 1/200 or 1/350, you can get there with Lycra. Not really with monofilament fishing lines. Most model rigging lines are substantially overscale

4. It seems to me Infini lines are somewhat viscoelastic. That is to say if you stretch them and then let go, they immediately spring back maybe 80% of the way to their original dimension, but the last 20% takes a few days. So if your rigging line is slightly too slack when you first install them, they will tighten up in a day or two.


Like David said the lycra lines are very fine, and very sensitive to static electricity, and to any breeze, including your breath. So it is a challenge to tie knots in it.

I address the problem in two ways:

1. Typically rigging does not connect directly to masts or other structures on the ship. Instead it is connected by a turnbuckle or padeye, on through porcelain insulators. So I would cut a small length from 0.3mm styrene rode to mimic turn buckles or pad eyes, connect the lycra line to it, and then connect the styrene to the mast. This not only create a realistic impression of the hardware that connects rigging and antenna to ships, but also give the ends of the lycra line a little weight to make them easier to handly before they are installed.

2. 20 or 40 denier lycra lines can be made easier to work with by wetting them. It makes them temporarily stiffer, heavier and far less sensitive to static electricity. Spraying CA glue accelerant on them also achieve the same purpose.

_________________
Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:21 pm
Posts: 3374
Location: equidistant to everywhere
Here are a few draw back of using lycra lines :


1. It is difficult to give them a realistic sag. Many real life lines and antenna are not perfectly taut and they have a conspicuous sag. It's difficult to achieve this with lycra lines. Even if you set up lycra lines a little loose so they start with a little sag, remember they will naturally shorten if not held consistently under tension, the sag you think you have put into the rigging will tend to go away after a day or two.


2. white lycra lines are translucent. Most halyards and rope rigging are a light color. If you try to use white lycra line to mimic ropes or halyards, they will look strange if back lit because they are translucent. So you may wish to find a way to paint them. I find paint them with diluted Tamiya acrylic deck tan works.


3. Wire antenna on real ships often consist of an aerial cable stretched between masts, and a lead wire that drops down from the middle of the aerial cable to the transmitter or receiver. Connecting an lycra aerial cable with a lycra lead wire with CA glue doesn't work very well. Lycra seems to curl up upon contact with CA glue. This is worse with very fine 20 or 40 denier lines, than thicker 70 or 120 denier lines. The stretchiness of the lycra means the it is difficult to straighten out the curled part with tension. I find using a dab of thickened acrylic paint to join end of one lycra line to the middle of another works well.

_________________
Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:27 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba; Canada
Just throwing a few points out there, for a 'possiblility' but has anyone looked at a music/instrument shop?

For larger models there are the 'finer end' of guitar strings and/or piano wire, whereas at the smaller end there are the individual strands from say a violin bow, or a cello bow. These can be "horse-hair" or synthetic.

One other point, but for running the lines, if they come on a spool (or you can put it on a spool) then I'd suggest a "BOBBIN" such as those used for fly-tying. Immediate and specific placement of the exact line, as well as immediate control of the tension of said line..... all with using only one hand. That way the other hand is available for tying/gluing/strangling, whichever mood suits you.

:D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:55 pm
Posts: 62
Another possibility that I have used with some success on 1/700 ships is Angel Hair. This is essintially spun glass that comes in (approximately) at .002in. Find in craft shops around the holiday season. 1 box would be about 10,000 years supply. The problem with its lack of color can be fixed with a colored Sharpie. Use white glue or some such or cyano.
T2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:52 pm
Posts: 502
Location: Inverness
Quote:
I'm also leary of using hair (human or otherwise), because it is a biological material and I'm concerned about the long term stability of it.


I wouldn't let that bother you, 3,000 year old hair is still extant from Egyptian mummies.

I think the plastic would break down before that

Cheers, Jabb

_________________
HMS Hood, the big one!

I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Ultrafine rigging
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 171
Location: South Carolina
I'd like to thank Jabberwock, MrTsquare, and Sean_the_Nailer for their recent and informative posts. I'd like to make a couple of points re the recent comments.

Actual glasses, such as spun glass, don't have a fixed chemical composition (glass refers to a material's lack of crystallinity), but they are generally totally inorganic (vs organic like plants, animals and their by-products such as plastics and rubbers). Typical glasses are likely to be chemically stable for millions of years, since glass is extremely resistant to chemicals (which is why so many chemicals are stored in glass bottles). I would like to know, though, how easy it is to tie a small knot from a strand of angel hair? Knots always help when glue might fail to hold rigging in place.

The diameter of human hair is actually quite variable (by over a factor of ten). Ultrafine, at least to my mind, implies a diameter of not more than about 0.003 inches or 80 micrometers (microns). 80 microns is close to the "average" diameter of human hair, so average or finer hair would be ultrafine, but coarser hair would not be (with respect to this forum).

I have an "infinite" supply of 0.003 inch nylon monofilament thread (miles), and it is much finer than a stringed instrument string unless the string is woven of finer strands. The problem with unweaving strands is that sometimes the finer pieces are proper threads themselves, but more like thread fragments, and when you try to separate them out, you don't get particularly long pieces.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ultrafine rigging
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:55 pm
Posts: 62
I would NEVER try to knot Angel Hair....
T2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:57 am
Posts: 14
Has anybody tried the UV varnish (or glues) used by fly makers (for fishing), they harden almost instantaneously when exposed to UV light, but meanwile allows you to work freely. I am thinking about trying it but I would like to know if here is any experience among you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group