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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:47 am 
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Probably not being clear - my specialty. I think I can figure how to attach plastic sprue to plastic. I'm not sure about attaching plastic sprue to a metal/PE mast with Testors plastic cement. I suspect one reason that Mr. Baumann likes Revell (I'm only assuming it's the US Testors) is that it works more slowly and doesn't attack plastic as vigorously as Tamiya or, better yet, Weld-On 3. It also doesn't dry as quickly, explaining it's popularity for link tracks in tank-world. As noted, I've got some PE sprue around and have tried gluing some of my plastic sprue against it with Testors and the stuff comes undone pretty quickly. Super Glue would hold it very nicely if it didn't annihilate the sprue/line or if you didn't screw up with it. I do admit to hating super glue and will always look for a alternative. Baumann's method must work, or he wouldn't use it. Just wonder if this is a matter of him being naturally more careful and subtle in approach than lower primates like myself. For what it's worth, I've super glued very thin plastic sprue on several aircraft for antenna. (If things are quiet, I get help from my wife: you can do it with a very small bit of glue if you can guide the line with both hands and call "hit the kicker." Usually works and the connection point is invisible.) I'm very interested in David Griffith's idea of using mucilage glue. I've got some on order, in the meantime I made my own batch with gelatin and vinegar. It's very "tacky" and should hold a thin sprue or fly-line in place. Once it dries, the line will stay put for sure. And as the stuff is really kind of an amber and not a cement, the material type won't matter. I've used the stuff on PE doors and hatches and it's very good for that. PE or fly line/thin sprue are so light that you might as well make that inherent difficulty work for. BTW: I've found that if you want to move a bit of PE (or a small plastic part) and get it to stay in a place for a dab of super glue or something else, that Future works very well. It's just tacky enough to hold small bits, but obviously won't do any damage and isn't a glue so you can remove things no problem. Got that idea from an editor of Military Modeler on YouTube who recommended using Future to attach aircraft canopies. I've taken up that practice and it works fine. Course if you turned the thing upside down to let incense drift up on it, the canopy would fall off. With my Iron Duke a couple of turrets will probably go AWOL.
Eric

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:07 pm 
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The loads on each individual piece of rigging are negligible.

As such the liquid cement 'melts' the end of each piece of sprue and makes a very positive attachment to any material or surface, ==> funnel, deck, rail, mast or yard etc .

The advantage over CA is that the cement actually almost entirely ' vanishes' into vapour -

-ergo no adhesive build-up--unlike CA--where one often sees models with 'swollen' yard arm ends....

Trust me it works--but always use a new drop of cement for each individual strand of rigging, as the cement starts curing the moment it leaves the bottle and you need it 'hot' and fresh...

JIM B

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:15 am 
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I'm sure there's a good reason that most of the 700 scale ship models I've seen in the flesh have had sparse or no rigging at all - I don't think ship modeling falls into the "simple" category once you get past a certain point. Luckily Mr. Baumann's technique is wonderfully illustrated here - incense and all. (I even bought some: wife was a little confused about that one, although she was a "flower child" - no joke.) I bought David Griffith's book "Ship Models from Kits" and he's got a completely different technique of using very fine fishing line with PVA (anchored with blue stick and masking tape) also illustrated very nicely in living color. Naturally, I'd like to be able to afford my own personal styrene trainer, but for the moment these are pretty decent resources. I'm also looking around at the WWI aircraft crowd. Rigging a plane looks pretty simple compared to this stuff, but they've certainly put a lot of thought into it. I've been collecting cheap brooms: I've one with really thin plastic bristles that won't work for 700 scale, but I'm sure would stand in for something in 350: ditto with a metal brush with 2" bristles that are very thin but hold shape. And of course there's Mr. Baumann's friend's method of making your own railing with solder. One thing I do have is a growing collection of products that make one thing stick to another. CVA, PVA, plastic glues of every description, dual tack tapes, low tack Magic Tape (found that today - looks great for masking) and glue dots. Good news is that I'm ready for a crack at rigging and railing. Bad news is that if it screws up I don't have anyone to blame.

Eric

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:30 am 
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Jim, I just registered to say that I just tried your method for tensioning rigging and it worked fantastically well. The other half even likes it as it makes the place smell nice as well. One question, can you over tension as it seems to have drawn th main mast forward a bit? The kit was Trumpies 350 Prinz Eugen. Thanks again its made a huge difference to how the finished item looks as I was not going to rig till I saw your piece.

Mark


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Tried Mr Baumann's sprue making technique and it is indeed much easier than other ways I've tried. It did take me a little while to figure out that if you wanted thicker sprue you had to slow the process a bit. (Wanted to do that because I think having sprue just thick enough to maintain "memory" will make it valuable for all kinds of modeling chores, even if it's seriously out of scale for a 600 ship.) Making the micro-grade stuff is indeed simple.

So tonight I'll try rigging a ship. My poor Iron Duke has survived a number of "firsts" and I hope she's in for the shock. I've got enough sprue to rig Victory, Testors glue and what I hope are serviceable tweezers. Also have blue tack, ultra-thin Italian fly line, mucilage and David Griffith's book in case his techniques better serve my slow hands. Both look pretty daunting. Might even try another rigger's suggestion and get out my "helping hands" which have done much for me yet, but might actually help here. Can only try.

Eric

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:36 am 
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>One question, can you over tension as it seems to have drawn th main mast forward a bit?<


As far as I have been able to ascertain-- once the sprue has reached tension, it cannot be tightened further without snapping...

I would point the finger-respectfully :big_grin: ... at the masts-..did you use the plastic kit items?

For all modelships I always make new metal masts of ideally stainless steel - see my build articles

thin masts of plastic -with age- 'can' sometimes 'wander' towards a lightsource - ie window or similar ... arghh!

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html


Stainless has far greater spring and strength than brass-- so will resist any untoward rigging loads more effectively.
But on the whole glad that the sprue worked for you!

:thumbs_up_1:

JIM B

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:55 am 
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Yes I used the kit masts. My skills are not to the stage yet of building my own, its only my third ship since starting to build them after always doing aircraft. The pull forward isnt so bad but it catches my eye a bit. Its finished and I am happy as I wanted it finished before I deploy for four months. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Want to thank Mr. Baumann and others on this thread (heavens, no pun intended). I used the stretched sprue techniques - making and tightening with incense and they both worked trumps. Can't say that I mastered anyone's rigging procedure. I think David Griffith's ideas nicely illustrated in his book might well have worked had there been more rigging in the horizontal. Here everything was very confined and vertical. All I can say is that I'd never done it before and had to muddle through. Ended up using a combination of old fashioned Testors tube cement to get a hold, followed by a dab of Gator Glue which makes for a very strong bond. One of the nice things about sprue is that I had several different widths to work with. I'm sure that I got them out of scale, but the halyards and the cables for the crane were clearly supposed to be thicker than rest of the rigging. Some of it must be small enough because I can't really see it more than three feet away, nor does it all show up in photos. I put a few photos up in gallery. Here's one to save bother.

Thanks again.
Eric

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Marky mark wrote:
Yes I used the kit masts. My skills are not to the stage yet of building my own, its only my third ship since starting to build them after always doing aircraft.


To borrow the above comment from Mark, I too appreciate your information on rigging, however, it does require a skill set that I think many (myself included) have not yet mastered, namely replacing / scratchbuilding masts.

I work mainly in 1/700. While there are PE sets out there that offer a yardarm here and there, I haven't seen much of anything that gives the modeler a complete change over from deck to masthead. This then launches one into scratchbuilding and assembly with multi-media materials.

Where would you direct someone for a primer in this area ?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:36 am 
Eric Bergerud wrote:
BTW: I've found that if you want to move a bit of PE (or a small plastic part) and get it to stay in a place for a dab of super glue or something else, that Future works very well. It's just tacky enough to hold small bits, but obviously won't do any damage and isn't a glue so you can remove things no problem. Got that idea from an editor of Military Modeler on YouTube who recommended using Future to attach aircraft canopies. I've taken up that practice and it works fine. Course if you turned the thing upside down to let incense drift up on it, the canopy would fall off. With my Iron Duke a couple of turrets will probably go AWOL.
Eric


Slightly OT reply here but, I think Eric is underestimating the holding power of Future. I've used it many times to attach canopies and they will not fall off if the model is inverted. Future makes a pretty decent adhesive for certain jobs. I haven't tried it yet on rigging but suspect it would work as well as mucilage for David Griffith's method but might not dry fast enough to be used with Jim's stretched sprue method. Another drawback I can see is that it is naturally glossy so any rigging points would have to get a matte touchup.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:59 am 
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pagodaphile wrote:
Marky mark wrote:
Yes I used the kit masts. My skills are not to the stage yet of building my own, its only my third ship since starting to build them after always doing aircraft.


To borrow the above comment from Mark, I too appreciate your information on rigging, however, it does require a skill set that I think many (myself included) have not yet mastered, namely replacing / scratchbuilding masts.

I work mainly in 1/700. While there are PE sets out there that offer a yardarm here and there, I haven't seen much of anything that gives the modeler a complete change over from deck to masthead. This then launches one into scratchbuilding and assembly with multi-media materials.

Where would you direct someone for a primer in this area ?


This would be helpfu to me. I've reached a point in modeling where I am very tempted by the possibilities of upgraded masts, but have no idea what tools, techniques, or materials practitioners would recommend for a fast start in the practice.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:52 pm 
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Jim, I slowly getting my Tamiya Missouri to the stage as I have to do the antenna rigging and flag halyards. I want to use your method. What do you do for insulators and turnbuckles? Also, when you substitute for metal masts, what do you do for all of the other structures that surround them? As I get deeper into the details of the WWII Iowas, I see that these "simple" masts have lots of stuff holding them up, e.g., angular braces, Forestays and backstays, etc. These are hard to fasten to metal masts (I think). Here's a shot of the ship as of today's session.

Attachment:
Mid-section Progress.jpg
Mid-section Progress.jpg [ 91.37 KiB | Viewed 6484 times ]


Attachment:
Bow area complete.jpg
Bow area complete.jpg [ 101.92 KiB | Viewed 6484 times ]


I'm modeling the ship at the end of WWII as it was on the trip back to Pearl. The teak had been returned to natural wood and the 20mm tubs were already removed abreast of turret 2. John at Scaledecks cut these so that tub was gone. The horizontal metal surfaces remained 20B deck blue. I wanted the wood decks to show, but also wanted most of the WWII weapons configuration and this specific time period allowed that.

It has Scaledecks Maple decks, ABER brass main guns, steel prop shafts, and the Eduard Missouri set. I really need to make a second one to incorporate all the learnings from this one. I've also added as many vertical and angular supports as practical on the overhanging tubs. I scratchbuilt the boat davit winches which lie foreward of the ship's boats P & S.

Today, I built the first MK38 radar set. Eduard is very accurate and very, very delicate. I actually have two complete sets to make one complete ship. Eduard etches where the bends go. Very convenient, but the etching reduces the cross-section so much that the parts often disassmble themselves at these points. It's exasperating! With the second set of PE that Eduard sent, I'm replacing some of the railings that have taken the most beating. I've covered the stand and hull with protection so I can work on the upper works without messing up a finished surface.

Attachment:
Foreward Rangefinder Complete 1.jpg
Foreward Rangefinder Complete 1.jpg [ 70.68 KiB | Viewed 6484 times ]


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:34 am 
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Jim, I slowly getting my Tamiya Missouri to the stage as I have to do the antenna rigging and flag halyards. I want to use your method. What do you do for insulators and turnbuckles?

I use thinned white glue for the turnbuckles , applied with a paintbrush-carefully and then painte them using thinned enamel paint-carefully! and blobs of paint for the insulators



Also, when you substitute for metal masts, what do you do for all of the other structures that surround them? As I get deeper into the details of the WWII Iowas, I see that these "simple" masts have lots of stuff holding them up, e.g., angular braces, Forestays and backstays, etc. These are hard to fasten to metal masts (I think). Here's a shot of the ship as of today's session.

I use paper for angled brace s and gussets- tacked in place with matt varnish and then once in place I add a drop of CA using a piece of stretched sprue as the applicator--slightly springy so it does not dislodge the varnish tacked piece.


For Braces I use CA to glue-- but always tacked in place with matt varnish--more predictable, gives plenty of wiggle time and nice and tacky for grab to give location
Superglue can be decidedly un-super some times....!!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:30 am 
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Thanks... I keep the forum abreast of the success (or failure) going forward on the rigging challenges.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:38 am 
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I tried this the other day, making the stretched sprue worked a treat. I had tried before but used the wrong technique and had uneven results, but trying the technique described by Jim worked perfectly first time, producing a long and even hair thickness length, enough for a number of rigging lines.

The difficult part was attaching the lines as polystyrene type glues do seem to melt the end quite rapidly. Tried using liquid poly and ca glues and settled on thicker type Revell glue. It took over an hour just to attach the first two lines, but as with most new things got quicker with trial and error. Also access reaching into the inner areas of the model carefully without touching any part already done was part of the difficulty and required an advanced level of digital contortionism. Other difficulties are caused by air movement in the room which although normally imperceptable indoors blows a thread of stretched sprue around, and lighting had to be very good just to see it properly. I'm fairly confident that perceverence and practice will win through.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Jim,

Here's the masting for the Missouri completed in brass. I didn't take your advice and use stainless, but the brass is pretty stiff. How do you suggest attaching stretched sprue to the metal? Note: I used some 0.008" piano wire under the main yard to simulate the trolley rig where the upper end of the flag halyards belay. I want to use your method of White Glue blobs to simulate the blocks for the halyard pairs. I'm also using the piano wire for the mast stays.

I'm about a week away from starting the rigging process. In the picture of the main mast... it's just sitting there for the beauty shot. I'm going to airbrush it off the model before installation.

Attachment:
Aft Mast Complete 1.jpg
Aft Mast Complete 1.jpg [ 24.63 KiB | Viewed 6216 times ]


Attachment:
Aft Mast support structure.jpg
Aft Mast support structure.jpg [ 23.05 KiB | Viewed 6216 times ]


All of the mast parts were either soldered, CA'd or epoxied with J-B Weld. I need a resistance soldering unit if I want to entirely solder these complex assemblies. As it is, the proximity of parts to one another makes it very tricky to solder one piece without the next falling off. Even using solder of different melting points didn't help much (a little, but not much).

Attachment:
Foremast installation 1.jpg
Foremast installation 1.jpg [ 69.7 KiB | Viewed 6216 times ]


I used J-B Weld steel-filled epoxy to hold some of these components. While not a "traditional" modelling adhesive, it really works nicely even in very small quantities. This picture was taken just after it cured and before I cleaned up the joints.
Attachment:
Main Yard Signal Halyard.jpg
Main Yard Signal Halyard.jpg [ 44.01 KiB | Viewed 6216 times ]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:59 pm 
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I use the same Revell Proffessional gl;ue--as the sprue end is melting-- apply to the yardor deck take off point

allow to set and attach at other end--do not try and apply tight--simply let it set and tauten with smoke

cut and paste from the previous page:

Application of stretched sprue rigging to ship

Essential preparation...When constructing the model substitute plastic or resin masts and yard arms with metal replacements.
Rigging places cumulative loads on masts and yards-these can distort and pull out of alignment plastic masts.

Place a drop of the Revell liquid poly cement on a flat surface.
I use old CD's or DVD's as my glue pallete. I use a fresh pool ( 3 drops or so) of glue for each end of a piece of rigging; space and adequate supply of glue is important!

I rig midships outwards, lower rigging first working upwards. This generally prevents problems with access at the closing stages of rigging.

On the ship that is being used here as the example- HMS Scylla- the signal halyards terminate next to the flag lockers at the aft end of the lower bridge.
Select an over-length piece of tan sprue for running rigging, hold in tweezers, dip one end into fresh pool of glue; the sprue will start to melt and from a small ball.
Apply the 'ball end' to the LOWER end of the signal halyard position. Holding the model at a suitable angle, rest the sprue 'halyard' on to the chosen yard.
Make a new pool of glue. Dip cocktail stick in glue and apply a tiny drop onto the chosen position on the yard; and using tweezers PUSH-not pull the sprue onto the droplet of glue- it will grab immediately.

Using the same cocktail stick, dipped in a fresh pool of glue, apply the stick onto the yard to the side of the sprue; it will melt and kink,- remove the cocktail stick-complete with the waste sprue.
You should now have a clean attachment- with no odd ends or blobs.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Thank you Jim.

I've tended to use very thin copper wire for rigging, aerials and the like but having read your tips on producing these from stretching plastic I am very tempted to give that a go.
Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:12 pm 
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I have used heat stretch spru on a lot of stuff, but nowhere near as good as yours!. One little trick i came up with to make it much easyer, i formed tools from bits of plastic, ie, sometimes i found it possible to attatch one end then the other, but over long, trimming off the exess when dry. For this i have a long thin peace of plastic with a notch on the top edge at one end to nerse the spru into place.
However sometimes i have found that i have to set the spru in place allready cut to size, so i made the same type of tool, only in a "V" shape, cradle the spru in the to notches at the end of the v then lower into place.
I hope to post some pics of some of my spru rigged models this weekend, but very basic compared to yours, Smashing demo thread!!.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:25 am 
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Well I to have to take the plunge in rigging, having finished two ships(but with no rigging yet).

Having looked at many posts here and on finewaterline, I feel confident in useing the revell glue method.

Thanks Jim for explaining so well here and on other forums this process.

Now its time to take the bit by the tail :wave_1: .

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