The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:26 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:35 pm
Posts: 536
Here is a pair of videos I found using an interesting set of techniques. I got the guy's permission to post them here.

Part 1


Part 2

I'm going to give this a try this weekend. worst case scenario is i ruin a free piece of cardboard and waste a $3 tube of silicone. lol

_________________
-Shane

Dallas, Tx

Working on: Revell 1/426 USS Arizona BB-39

In the Stash: USS Arizona 1/700 Dragon Premium, DKM Bismarck 1/700 Dragon Premium, Admiral Graf Spee 1/700 Trumpeter, & Prinz Eugen 1/700 Trumpeter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:46 am
Posts: 615
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, nothing I like better than a simple, inexpensive technique that yields impressive results. Interesting little footnote he added there, if you're going to use cardboard as your base material, build it up in layers first to avoid any warping (or use a piece of wood instead). Simulating water can be intimidating first time around, nice to see it needn't be so.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 1:50 pm
Posts: 1980
I recently tried natural air-drying sculpting clay for water. 1) it's inexpensive; 2) it's very malleable and easy to work with; 3) you can use it in thick applications and make large waves as it holds it's shape; 4) there is no #4 :big_grin: . So far, so good. But as it dries it tends to shrink a lot, and crack, especially shrinking away from the sides of the ship's hull. As it shrunk it took the paint along with it :mad_2: requiring filling the resulting gap and hiding missing paint with acrylic gel. The hull, BTW, was protected with Future, oil paint weathering, and dull-coat (Future mixed with Tamiya Matt-Base). Has anyone tried any other kind of sculpting medium with better results?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:35 pm
Posts: 536
So i've been working on this silicon stuff. And i'm surprised how well it's working. I'm just doing it on an old piece of a cardboard box to practice the technique. Still need to work out the base colors. My water looks a little too south pacific crystal clear blue. Think I need to try to find a mix of acryllics that make a more greyish sea. Not sure I need overcast north atlantic in winter but I don't want Bahamas. I'd just picked up a few of the cheap $2 8oz. grade school looking art class acrylics. Picked up a "Royal Blue". a light "morning blue", a "Navy Blue" and an "ocean blue". The Royal blue is a real blue blue. A little too bright for a base water. the light morning blue is for the froth/foam/wave action which i've found to be about the perfect color for that. Next test will be using the NAvy Blue as the base water color. But the "Ocean Blue" seems to have a little too much green in it for me. They should have called it "Texas Lake" lol.

_________________
-Shane

Dallas, Tx

Working on: Revell 1/426 USS Arizona BB-39

In the Stash: USS Arizona 1/700 Dragon Premium, DKM Bismarck 1/700 Dragon Premium, Admiral Graf Spee 1/700 Trumpeter, & Prinz Eugen 1/700 Trumpeter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:46 am
Posts: 615
Thanks for the tips, in addition to the "mechanical" side of things (decent base material, selection and working of the acrylic or whatever other medium) there's the matter of getting the colors as we want them. Guess there's an "art" to that. Just a suggestion, but a little green or gray mixed in might do the trick (except for simulating the Mississippi, I guess...). Byword is "experiment" it seems...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 1:50 pm
Posts: 1980
Hallis wrote:
So i've been working on this silicon stuff.

By 'silicon stuff', do you mean clear silicon caulking in a squeezy tube? And how do you tint it? :wave_1:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:35 pm
Posts: 536
biggles2 wrote:
Hallis wrote:
So i've been working on this silicon stuff.

By 'silicon stuff', do you mean clear silicon caulking in a squeezy tube? And how do you tint it? :wave_1:


The exact same stuff in the video i linked. You put the color layer underneath. And then dry brush on top as needed as it goes on white and dries crystal clear. I haven't experimented with the white dry brushing yet and need to work on my preferred water colors. I've done a few tests. I've got the silicon down.


Now about color. I'm going to try adding some grey to the water. Not sure whether i'm going to mix grey with the royal blue, navy blue, or possibly use prodominantly grey or blue-grey.

anybody have any tips on a slightly grey sea? FS colors that you use? I'd like to stick to the relatively inexpensive acrylics

_________________
-Shane

Dallas, Tx

Working on: Revell 1/426 USS Arizona BB-39

In the Stash: USS Arizona 1/700 Dragon Premium, DKM Bismarck 1/700 Dragon Premium, Admiral Graf Spee 1/700 Trumpeter, & Prinz Eugen 1/700 Trumpeter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:35 pm
Posts: 536
Here are some shots of my tests on an old box.

first one was royal blue as a base color, then morning blue for the wave/foam. Then the silicon built up and brushed/drybrushed with white on top of the silocon.

Attachment:
File comment: With an actual built up wave
image (6).jpeg
image (6).jpeg [ 133.2 KiB | Viewed 7588 times ]



The second pic here are a few different base colors, Midnight blue, and Ocean blue.

Attachment:
File comment: no built up wave, only base water
image (7).jpeg
image (7).jpeg [ 144.79 KiB | Viewed 7588 times ]


Going to try for some more grey looking water maybe this weekend. I'm open to suggestions on color. i'd prefer to use inexpensive hobby shop acrylics if i can. they seem to work extremely well for this.

_________________
-Shane

Dallas, Tx

Working on: Revell 1/426 USS Arizona BB-39

In the Stash: USS Arizona 1/700 Dragon Premium, DKM Bismarck 1/700 Dragon Premium, Admiral Graf Spee 1/700 Trumpeter, & Prinz Eugen 1/700 Trumpeter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:46 am
Posts: 615
Looks to me as if you're getting some impressive (and inspiring!) results, obtaining a range of effects. As to suggestions on color, further experimentation with gray/green and gray/blue mixtures would be in order in my estimation. Of course, and as you no doubt know, the color of the sea reflects the color of the sky, and with the Atlantic being generally more cloud covered than the Pacific, realistic effects are very much set by the particular conditions you wish to depict. (In some situations, purples and violets of varying shades might also be a nice touch. It might help to look at some seascape artwork for further ideas.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:35 pm
Posts: 536
MareNostrum wrote:
Looks to me as if you're getting some impressive (and inspiring!) results, obtaining a range of effects. As to suggestions on color, further experimentation with gray/green and gray/blue mixtures would be in order in my estimation. Of course, and as you no doubt know, the color of the sea reflects the color of the sky, and with the Atlantic being generally more cloud covered than the Pacific, realistic effects are very much set by the particular conditions you wish to depict. (In some situations, purples and violets of varying shades might also be a nice touch. It might help to look at some seascape artwork for further ideas.)


Thanks!

I'm trying to get a feel for what works best to depict several different types of ocean, some pacific, something maybe a little more fall/winter/overcast atlantic, etc. Not sure why i didn't think of this beforehand but my cousin is a professional portrait artist. Might be not too horrible of an idea to ask him how to make certain colors, or if they come pre-made even better, for consistency.

I was really intimidated about attempting most of the water making techniques until I found the videos I linked on Youtube.. There's just such a large difference between showing a bunch of stills and a video showing the techniques in action. There's a lot of talk of sculpting and whatnot in some techniques. And in this method basically you're laying down material and slapping it with a freggin plastic spoon!! How ingenious in its simplicity is that? lol. Of course I need to practace some attempt at sculpting so I can do a bow wave. But I think the results here speak for themselves. I may branch out into some of the more interesting methods later on. Although Jim's watercolor paper method scares me a bit, lol.

_________________
-Shane

Dallas, Tx

Working on: Revell 1/426 USS Arizona BB-39

In the Stash: USS Arizona 1/700 Dragon Premium, DKM Bismarck 1/700 Dragon Premium, Admiral Graf Spee 1/700 Trumpeter, & Prinz Eugen 1/700 Trumpeter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:46 am
Posts: 615
A big plus in having that artist cousin, I think there'd be a lot to pick up on regarding technique and what's involved in getting certain effects, such as creating depth using different colors and shades as opposed to just getting some flat result with one or two colors. I wouldn't hold out too much hope however in finding a pre-mixed tube of paint, I guess we are required to exhibit some "artistic interpretation" in the effort! Still, I understand what you mean in this...

One reason why I'm glad you've brought this technique to our attention is that it is simple, inexpensive, and lends itself to very good results. Simulating water can be intimidating, with a myriad of approaches out there, but with a relatively low-learning-curve, hand's-on approach, one's confidence is quickly established and serves as impetus to try other methods, if one so wishes, that might be more involved. Now with all that blather out of the way, time for me to stow the mouth and get the hands working...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:37 pm 
Gentlemen I posted this back in March--

but was unable to insert the images then.



Years ago I promised to find the perfect way to model water - I believe I found it

Making water using wax
===================

So here goes, while taking some art related courses, mould making, lost wax to be exact, I cast an 18 inch chunk of ocean in glass, with a bronze whale diving through it. Next was the "proof" piece, a 6 inch wax square with a 1/700 Alpha.

Perfection!

The tools you need are a wood burning tool with changeable tips, metal double ended scupting tools(cut them in half and fit into wood burner). A variable power source. These are for smaller scales. For larger scales an alcohol lamp and an assortment of spoon sizes.

Attachment:
20130924_203655.jpg
20130924_203655.jpg [ 258.8 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]



When you work the wax it's liquid, as soon as you remove the heat it freezes in place. You can move large amounts or very small bits, vary the heat to change the effects. Use low heat and "pop" the tool off the surface and you get the amazing vein texture that makes the water come alive. The more you work it the more tricks you'll learn. Stipple the foam with white paint, no gloss, all the other water is glossed over.

Experiment with differant waxes & paints. Dyes/tinted wax will bleed into paint, you can play with white drier lint (after you remove the hair & dingleberries), and cut brush bristles for spray & splashes depending on scale. Any time you want to change it, repair it, add to it, you can. To tint you might try blending crayons into melted wax.

You can use a solid chunk or any base you want, use glass or plastic and sculpt above and below the surface with the ship suspended in it. To melt larger amounts you need a crock pot, don't inhale the fumes, wax will stay in the lungs, it smells nice!

I felt bad all these years reading about the problems model makers have with water. I have seen some great water, but no matter what you use if it don't look like the picture.....

For the best results the tools should be metal and "spoon" shaped.
I also found myself nodding out because of the calming soothing repetitious wave forming, you might consider coffee or an energy drink !!

If you need some help with the type or tinting/painting of the wax I suggest you visit an art supply store, not a hobby shop.
Many artists sculpt, paint, make moulds with wax and may have some helpful tips. The people working in the store can also be very helpful.

Good luck

Al

Images of my experiments are below:


Attachments:
20130909_164929.jpg
20130909_164929.jpg [ 405.84 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]
20130909_165715.jpg
20130909_165715.jpg [ 346.72 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]
20130909_165726.jpg
20130909_165726.jpg [ 315.11 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]
20130909_170138.jpg
20130909_170138.jpg [ 346.39 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]
20130909_170152.jpg
20130909_170152.jpg [ 394.93 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]
20130924_203121.jpg
20130924_203121.jpg [ 397.72 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]
20130924_203139.jpg
20130924_203139.jpg [ 338.93 KiB | Viewed 7471 times ]
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:54 pm 
These are the 3 waxes I used. Bleached Bees wax, Parafin , and Encaustic. They all work equally well.

Attachment:
20131122_211055.jpg
20131122_211055.jpg [ 219.55 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]





You melt the wax in the Coke cans, using the alcohol burner.

Add some colouring, candle colours, only 4 colours used, green, blue, black, & white. You can use liquid or solid.

Pour into your mould.

Sculpt with a spoon heated on the burner, the measuring spoon set lets you get a variety of sizes.

To make the white caps use the wire to fluff up the foam then stipple with the brush and the heavy body acrylic white paint.

Attachment:
20131122_212006.jpg
20131122_212006.jpg [ 213.51 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]





This is what I used to make all the models.

Attachment:
20131122_212330.jpg
20131122_212330.jpg [ 333.2 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]


Use these to make the foam.

Attachment:
20131123_125759.jpg
20131123_125759.jpg [ 277.22 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]





Attachment:
20131120_181213.jpg
20131120_181213.jpg [ 263.86 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]



Attachment:
20131120_181340.jpg
20131120_181340.jpg [ 260.03 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]




Attachment:
20131120_181815.jpg
20131120_181815.jpg [ 249.19 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]



Attachment:
20131120_181754.jpg
20131120_181754.jpg [ 321.55 KiB | Viewed 7399 times ]


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:15 pm 
Here are some more images of the effect achieved


Attachments:
20131120_182009.jpg
20131120_182009.jpg [ 334.59 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_181958.jpg
20131120_181958.jpg [ 407.42 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_182113.jpg
20131120_182113.jpg [ 275.93 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_182100.jpg
20131120_182100.jpg [ 283.46 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_182241.jpg
20131120_182241.jpg [ 250.01 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_182231.jpg
20131120_182231.jpg [ 188.26 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_182352.jpg
20131120_182352.jpg [ 287.32 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_182429.jpg
20131120_182429.jpg [ 238.39 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
20131120_182522.jpg
20131120_182522.jpg [ 300.79 KiB | Viewed 7396 times ]
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:26 pm 
some more images of the wax watermaking experiments

Hope it can be helpful to other modellers

Regards

Albert


Attachments:
20131123_141753.jpg
20131123_141753.jpg [ 217.22 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_182836.jpg
20131120_182836.jpg [ 258.48 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_182703.jpg
20131120_182703.jpg [ 219.72 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_194851.jpg
20131120_194851.jpg [ 110.64 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_194715.jpg
20131120_194715.jpg [ 118.09 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_183257.jpg
20131120_183257.jpg [ 140.2 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_183230.jpg
20131120_183230.jpg [ 157.62 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_182720.jpg
20131120_182720.jpg [ 138.16 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
20131120_183111.jpg
20131120_183111.jpg [ 154.34 KiB | Viewed 7392 times ]
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 7:20 pm
Posts: 870
Just linking up my methods to this thread. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154150

_________________
Every time the PE sticks to your tweezers, you lose a minute off your life.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:21 am
Posts: 13
I found this thread truly fascinating and inspiring. When I read some of the techniques and innovations you guys devise to base your ships, I genuinely believe I'm in the company of geniuses! :thumbs_up_1:

I've never tried basing a ship before, but after reading this thread, no way can I not give it a try. The big question is, which system would work best with 1/1250 scale ships? I don't think there is "a best" system on this thread, they are all amazing, so it really comes down to which would be the best to start with; what would you guys say about the system on the Youtube videos for a first attempt? Would Jim's system work in this scale, or what about Chris Flodberg with his oats? I suspect that might be a little too course for 1/1250, but hey... what do I know? And then there's Kostas Katseas's system. Again simply amazing, although I'd need an awful lot more information before trying that one.

I'm not going to start out with a real model, I've just finished knocking out hulls made from balsa to use as test beds to try to learn how to do this.

Any hints, tips or advice will be very much appreciated!

Thanks guys. :wave_1:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 10459
Location: Calgary, AB/Surrey, B.C., Canada
Kostas' method certain works for him - he's recently done some 1/1250 models, and his method (assuming he's used the same) works well: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

Jim Baumann's might work too, but I would use regular paper rather than watercolour due to the scale (or not, if you want choppier seas).

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:21 am
Posts: 13
WOW!! Just look at that tanker Kostas Katseas posted in the gallery! Absolutely amazing... incredible. The 10th photo - the overhead shot - is so lifelike it almost had me reaching for the Avomine.

I'm going to have to have a go at something like that. It'll probably turn out a total disaster, but as I said, I've made a few balso hulls to experiment with so it'll be OK.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Just adding my 2-cents of a method here, as a few people asked me how I did this Varyag seascape: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/ca/ru/Varyag-350-gg/index.htm

Sea scape using toilet paper (TP) and white glue.

There are two advantages that this technique brings. One is that the undulations of the resulting surface are more or less in a parallel direction, tricking us into thinking a breeze is blowing. Second, it is very forgiving: if you goof it up, a bit of water can help undo things, and adding a few pieces of TP can patch it up.

I have used it both on a flat surface and on styrofoam that was already given the basic shape of the waves. In other cases I lay down wires on the surface where the ship’s wave pattern will be, prior to applying the technique. The general idea is that the TP layer will be the final fine-grained layer of the sea surface. Any larger patterns will have to be there before you apply it.

Toilet paper or other kinds of cleaning paper wrapped in a cylinder has one characteristic that is relevant to our task. When you spread it on a flat surface and sprinkle water onto it, it wrinkles form mostly in a specific direction, parallel to the axis of the cylinder. I had success with plain tissue paper also, though one has to experiment to find the direction of the wrinkling.

Once the TP piece is laid down flat, I use either a syringe to wet it drop by drop, with diluted white glue; the degree of dilution is not important, but it should be on the watery side. I do this going left to right (parallel to the direction of wrinkling) over one edge first and progressing in parallel sweeps until I reach the opposite edge.

Sometimes the wrinkles fold over themselves and that does not look natural for a sea surface. Just make sure that the piece of TP is flat before you start wetting it and go gradually. Sometimes, once I wet the starting edge, I hold the opposite edge with one hand keeping the piece taught, as I progress wetting it in parallel sweeps.

Of course the sea base will be made of many pieces of TP that will be laid down progressively one by one overlapping each other. Two things to keep in mind here. One, if you leave the TP pieces intact, their straight edges will be very visible in the end product. So before you lay them down you need to pluck their edges so they are shredded. That will allow them to blur with each other as they overlap. Second, you need to remember the original orientation of the piece of TP as you pluck the edges, so that all of them are laid down in the same orientation. You don’t have to be exact here, within 10-15 degrees is good enough.

I lay down one full layer covering the whole sea scape, wait for it to dry and then repeat 3-4 times. As the thickness increases, the wrinkles become more pronounced and the sea becomes more pliable. At this stage you can use an old thick brush to pound on it perpendicularly and shape the waves that way.

Once you like the surface pattern you may put down your base paint. I use acrylics and have not experimented with oils. You may air or hand brush this; doesn’t make a difference. You can dry brush the wave crests or apply a darker wash at the valleys, but the next step will diminish the effect so I would not spend much effort on this.

The next step is to apply a layer of undiluted white glue with a brush. Be generous and let it dry. It will give a shiny texture to the surface and make it look darker, so take that into account when you decide on your base color.

If the ship is in motion, I start painting the area near the ship after this layer of undiluted white glue is applied. This is because the white you apply will momentarily dilute the white glue and blend in. So the white will not stay on the surface but will enter the layer of white glue. (Again I caution you that this pertains only to water-soluble acrylics.) If the white is too much you can use the base paint again to correct. You can achieve variations of lighter blue hues this way and the layer of white glue at the top gives these some “depth”. I always enjoy this part. It takes some getting used to because as you paint, the white glue is diluted and turns white. So let things dry before you check the results of a session and decide on applying more white or more of the base color.

Once I am happy (or too tired) with it, I apply another final layer of undiluted white glue. I have tried a gloss varnish, but I find the white glue shinier.

I hope you will enjoy playing with the technique and do remember to report back any additional tricks you come up with. But I tell, you, when I grow up, I want to do the seascapes sargentx is making. Man these are great!

_________________
George A. Georgopoulos


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group