Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans

[Longshaor]

Given the open windows of the flag plot, does anyone know of any photos of the interior on the web? Also, have any of you who've built the Trumpeter 1/350 kit had a problem with the edge of the hull being substantially wider than the flight deck?

[MartinJQuinn]

I picked this up on ebay. It's an original US Navy Recruiting Photo (that is what is stamped on the back). It's the best copy I've even seen of this photo, so I wanted to scan it and share it here.

USS Saratoga, Summer/Fall 1941. US Navy Recruiting Photo.

While I'm at it, here is a postcard of the Sara much earlier in here career:

Saratoga Postcard

And finally another E-bay win (you should see the one that got away!) of Sara, from a distance, at sea:

Saratoga at sea. Back of photo says "Bunnell Photo Shop, 1033 Sixth St., San Diego. Mar 23, 1932"

[MartinJQuinn]

Given the open windows of the flag plot, does anyone know of any photos of the interior on the web? Also, have any of you who've built the Trumpeter 1/350 kit had a problem with the edge of the hull being substantially wider than the flight deck?

I've only seen photos of the interior of the pilot house, in Stern's Lexington Class Carriers book. I'll go back and look to see if there are any photos of the flag plot.

[Elvis965]

Nice pics, Martin. Thanks for sharing.

That top pic is the one that you can just barely see the mid-stack .50 cal platform peeking out from behind the stbd searchlight platform. I wish there were some nice clear pics of that somwhere.

Bob

[Dick J]

Reposted from SN

Topic at hand - U.S.S. SARATOGA Feasibility Study. Curious to know if the 1/700 scale SARATOGA can be up graded to become a 1942 Guadalcanal model topic. Well today I was having a look in my favorite hobby shop and I picked up the Trumpeter 1/700 SARATOGA.
Nevertheless, even though I think this 1936ish version is a nice kit I was wondering that if I was to purchase the 1942 U.S.S.LEXINGTON could I kit bash these models together and make an acceptable 1942 Guadalcanal SARATOGA? I'm sure the would be alterations to her bridge over the last five years. And I do know the 8" guns were long gone by August 1942. Does anyone know of any reading material I can review so I can find out the number and location of the A.A. guns the SARATOGA had in the summer of 1942.

There is probably more mis-information about Sara than any of the other pre-war carriers. Sara did receive a modernization from Jan to June of '41. The flightdeck was widened forward and lengthened aft. However, two intended upgrades were deferred. The hull was not bulged at that time and the elevators were not replaced. The AA included 5 3" guns (2 in the forward sponsons integral with the widened bow, 1 forward of the funnel, and the after pair were probably where the 1.1's, and later quad 40MM, were placed just aft of the after 5" guns) and 32 .50's (4 on the bow sponsons (2 per side), 8 on the after end platforms (4 per side), 8 on the turrets (2 each) and 12 on a Lexington style funnel gallery (which was lower down on the funnel than the one on Lex). In Nov '41, Sara had a short refit which replaced the 3" guns with the quad 1.1's, and added the liferafts on the inboard side of the funnel.

After being torpedoed, Sara had the blister added (there was no longer a need to keep her able to transit the canal - she was too badly needed in the Pacific), the funnel gallery was removed and the funnel shortened, the tripod foremast was removed, MK-37 AA directors were added, the 12 5" 25's were removed and replaced by 8 single 5" 38's in the sponsons and 4 twin 5" 38 mounts in place of the 8" guns (which had been removed at Pearl). 4 more quad 1.1's were added in the vacant sponson 5" positions (for a total of 9 mounts). 32 20MM were also added - 4 on the bow sponsons (2 per side), 8 on the after platforms (which were enlarged to accomodate 4 per side), 6 outboard of the funnel, 12 were placed in 3 irregularly shaped "catwalk" positions (4 to port abeam the bridge, 4 to port abeam the after twin 5", and 4 above the starboard boat pocket), and the last two were suspended below the aft rounddown (1 on each side).

This project is on my "to-do" list, so I have considered the changes. You will need two flightdecks. The main "keeper" deck will need to have the forward end removed forward of the 5" positions where the deck turns inward, and the after rounddown removed. Wider parts of the "donor" deck will need to be grafted fore and aft and the deck cut to the proper shape. The two forward rounddowns will need to be combined into one wider rounddown (the Lex rounddown is not quite wide enough) and an after rounddown fabricated. The starboard blister will need to be added from scratch. Aft, under the flightdeck, using two kits will allow the parts to build the correct flightdeck supporting structure. On the Lexington kit, the vertical "walls" below the after flightdeck are bulged outward where the after 1.1's and .50's were located. This is wrong. The platforms extended all the way back to the "deeper" location of the bulkheads. Using the parts from both kits, this may be straightened and the bulkheads extended all the way back to the new rounddown. All of the sponsons and other structures for the 1.1's and 20MM will need to be built from scratch. Also, the flag bridge will have to be scratch-built since Sara's didn't match the kit config for Lexington. (For that matter, the kit is probably also wrong for Lexington as well.) The pole foremast will have to be fabricated or stolen from another kit.

The bottom line is that the project is "do-able", but as you surmised, it will take two kits to do it.

[denstore]

If building the Trumpeter 1/350 Sara OOTB, what acrylic colors would you recommend for hull and flight deck and so on?

[Elvis965]

what acrylic colors would you recommend for hull and flight deck and so on?

All Testor's Model Master Marine Acrylic colors:

#4233 1937 Standard Navy Gray
#4228 Anti Fouling Red
#4235 Mahogany Flight Deck Stain

According to their web site, all are still available at Tower Hobbies.

HTH

Bob

[Tracy White]

Reposted from some recent correspondence:

Saratoga was in Measure 32-11A from the overhaul at Puget Sound June-September until the first day of November. There is some question as to the aircraft she embarked and their paint schemes when Saratoga was in dazzle. According to John Fry's "USS Saratoga CV-3," in that time she picked up a bunch of "new" planes at Alameda for transport to Pearl Harbor and served as a training carrier* out of Pearl for air groups 3, 4, 81, 82, 90, 100 and VCs 82, 83, and CVLG-45. None were permanently assigned.

I have some weekly reports of aircraft types broken down by location and ship, but in the fall of 1944 they switched formats back and forth between one that lists each type separately and one that just list "24 VF." I can find no mention of CVG-82 in the lists and am not sure what they typo should have said.

Looking at the squadrons about the 24th of September and October (when they break down by type) I can see that Air Groups 3 & 4 were a mixture of late F6Fs (GSB) and earlier TBMs and SB2Cs (tri-color); Air Group 81 was all tri-color.

CVG-90 was a dedicated night group and had F6F-3N & 5Ns as well as TBM-1Ds. CVG 100 was a dedicated training squadron and thus had the older aircraft, F6F-3s, SB2C-3s, TBM-1s, and FM-2s. VCs 82 & 83 were a mixture of FM-2s and TBM-1Cs.

* She was part of a task force assigned to develop night carrier groups.

[Michael Vorrasi]

Sara's 1944 Booklet of General Plans is available in pdf for download here:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/index.htm

[Steve]

I decided to complete the old Fujimi kit as an OOB "recognition model" project with a few simple modifications for appearance. My logic is based on the weapons fit being close to the actual even though the kit 5" and 20mm mounts are terrible. (I can live with the 40mm based on cost to replace.) The number of 40mm mounts (25) and 20mm (16) appears to be correct but two of the quad 40s may need to be replaced with twins. Looking into the spares boxes I picked out the 5" from a New Orleans (scratch and dent purchase for next to nothing) which will look OK when set lower. I need to cut down the kit 20mm mounts to at least look in correct proportion. The 20mm mount splinter shields are way too short but modifying these is not in the plan. As far as significant modifications, I reduced the height of the stack but need to fabricate a starboard blister. Can someone advise on the width of this blister? Positioning can be readily seen in the many photos. All in all this is turning out to be neither an expensive nor time consuming project. Advice on the blister width and location of the twin 40mm mounts will be appreciated.

[Brian J.]

I believe Jim Kloek once (years ago) had a very nice build up article in FSM of the Sara in this fit. The article was complete with diagrams, measurements and parts for the blister. His model looked really nice with the dazzle scheme. I'll look through my library for the article.

[MartinJQuinn]

I decided to complete the old Fujimi kit as an OOB "recognition model" project with a few simple modifications for appearance. My logic is based on the weapons fit being close to the actual even though the kit 5" and 20mm mounts are terrible. (I can live with the 40mm based on cost to replace.) The number of 40mm mounts (25) and 20mm (16) appears to be correct but two of the quad 40s may need to be replaced with twins. Looking into the spares boxes I picked out the 5" from a New Orleans (scratch and dent purchase for next to nothing) which will look OK when set lower. I need to cut down the kit 20mm mounts to at least look in correct proportion. The 20mm mount splinter shields are way too short but modifying these is not in the plan. As far as significant modifications, I reduced the height of the stack but need to fabricate a starboard blister. Can someone advise on the width of this blister? Positioning can be readily seen in the many photos. All in all this is turning out to be neither an expensive nor time consuming project. Advice on the blister width and location of the twin 40mm mounts will be appreciated.

I built the same kit as a circa 1945 version using the drawings in Stern's "The Lexington Class Carriers" book. Those plans can now be found here: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/index.htm (as posted by Michael Vorrasi a few posts up).

If I recall correctly (it's been at least 8 or 9 years since I finished her), I cut a piece of evergreen to size, sanded to shape and glued it to the side of the hull. I didn't bother with the port side blister, nor did I cut the funnel down - both of which would do if I was attempting to do this again. Of course, there are other issues, like the flight deck not being long enough. If you look back through this thread, Dick J has listed what would need to be done...

[Steve]

Brian - Thanks I will look into my archives also as I tend to save good articles too. I'll post tonight once I look for it.

[Brian J.]

The article is in the October 1998 issue.

[Steve]

I believe Jim Kloek once (years ago) had a very nice build up article in FSM of the Sara in this fit. The article was complete with diagrams, measurements and parts for the blister. His model looked really nice with the dazzle scheme. I'll look through my library for the article.

Brian- My "archives" do not have this one on file. Is there any chance you could could scan and email? As an option I would be happy to pay for a mailed copy. Contact me via email if you can help.

[Brian J.]

I believe Jim Kloek once (years ago) had a very nice build up article in FSM of the Sara in this fit. The article was complete with diagrams, measurements and parts for the blister. His model looked really nice with the dazzle scheme. I'll look through my library for the article.

Brian- My "archives" do not have this one on file. Is there any chance you could could scan and email? As an option I would be happy to pay for a mailed copy. Contact me via email if you can help.

Steve- I can send you a copy of the article after I get back from Labor Day.

[Steve]

Brian - Email incoming. Steve

[keithhufangel]

In the research for my 1/700 1944 build of USS Saratoga (in camo) using "Warships Pictorial #11 and "Floating Drydock's Camouflage II" as references, I noted the 'immense' starboard side anti-torpedo blister and the considerably smaller one on the port side. I would consider these two publications a must for info on the ASW blisters and Saratoga's camouflage pattern 32-11a, as well as her bridge, radar, and AA armament updates as of September 7, 1944. . . . Hey! . . . You know this would be the unltimate subject (Saratoga Sept. 1944) for the next big project for say Trumpeter, or Dragon or maybe even an American company. I have been told by experts this is folly, but who knows . . . how long was it before we got a decent "Essex class" model of quality? Just a thought . . . especially for 'this' forum. Have fun modeling!

[MartinJQuinn]

Re-posted from the Main Forum:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/SBD_on_USS_Lexington_%28CV-2%29_1941.jpg


Rare photo of CV-3 mid 1941. Photo was miscaptioned as Lex.

Jerry P

Here it is (in case if disappears from Wikipedia)

[Brian Kotula]

Tracy, you list every years Saratoga's air groups and plane type except 1940 and early 1941. Do you happen to have the stats for them? Thanks Brian