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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:22 pm 
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Essex wrote:
The most interesting thing is that the two boats by Trumpy are quite different both in length and shape.


Trumpeter is notorious for changing their molds for smaller detail pieces like the motor whaleboats and 5"/25 guns.

I replaced both the 26' whaleboats on my Lexington (CV-2, not 16...sorry Essex guys!) with the L'Arsenal whaleboats. They look much better, IMHO. I don't think you would be disapppointed with them.

HTH

Bob


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Would anyone know of a good reference for the aircraft markings for the various Essexes? I speak of the tail and wing code symbols and/or letters (and whatever colored spinners, cowlings, etc.) used to tell the airgroups apart. Specifically (at the moment), I'd like to know what the CV-10's aircraft markings ought to be between Sept. '44 and early '45 (while the aircraft were still in three-tone camoflage) If anyone can just tell me that for now, I'd really appreciate it; but I'd also love to buy a book on the subject for future projects.

Apologies if this question doesn't belong in this topic, but I can't think of where else it ought to go.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:43 pm 
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It goes here, and while there are a couple of books that touch on the subject, none do in-depth on it... at most they have the different G symbols. My book will have it. Your time frame may be a little off; CV-10 was in refit until mid/late October, at which point CVG-3 came aboard. They were mostly Glossy Sea Blue F6Fs with a some tri-color Hellcats, tri-color avengers, and GSB Helldivers to start, but by the end of their service in mid-march I see only one possibly tri-color Hellcat left and half and half tri-color/GSB Avengers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:49 pm 
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Sean,

Aircraft Monograph #20, F6F Hellcat, by Adam Jarski and Waldemar Pajdosz. From AJ Press www.aj-press.com has every CV, CVL, CVE code for WWII. Great book if you need info on air groups.

Here goes: CV10

Diagonal white bar on fin only not rudder: F6F-3, SBD, TBM, SB2C
VF-5, VF(N)-76 (CVAG-5), Aug 43 - Apr 44
VF-1, VF(N)-77 (CVG-1), May - Aug 44
K on rudder only on VF-1 aircraft mid 1944


This book has drawings of all the codes. Don't want to scan copyright material.

Bob Wescott


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:06 pm 
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Tracy and Sumpter250 thanks for the reply. While the potato lockers make sense, I'm wondering about the ducts. My dad (on board Shangri-la from '44-'46) thought that the ducts may be related to the aircraft mechanics work area. He was in refrigeration (MMR) but was in that area on the hanger deck a lot. He thought that with the amount of work going on continuously with gasoline fumes, welding, and such that some rapid flow ventilation might be what the large diameter ducting was for. The Shang had a similar duct system, although it didn't run all the way to the back. Were there also incinerators in the area of the potato lockers too?

Capt652

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:37 pm 
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Incinerators appear to be in different areas depending on ship; a couple of them had the incinerator stack running up the starboard side of the island.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:24 am 
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SeanF wrote:
Would anyone know of a good reference for the aircraft markings for the various Essexes? I speak of the tail and wing code symbols and/or letters (and whatever colored spinners, cowlings, etc.) used to tell the airgroups apart.


There are many good references for the aircraft types served aboard the Essexes with photos and color drawings. (I have about 20 of them.) Most of them publicated by Squadron/Signal and Osprey. The Squadron/Signal has two main series of books: "in Action" and "Detial & Scale". Osprey has the series "...Units of the World War 2". Of course there are some other themes, like specific squadrons, e.g. Fighter Squadron Fourteen "Tophatters" by Squadron/Signal (#6173).

Unfortunately there is no photo or drawing from every aircraft squadron from every time period, maybe you can find only a few data from "your" ship's aircrafts in a given time.

This is a very complex theme, not only the camouflage of the aircrafts and the markings are different, but the size and the position of the aircraft numbers varied from air wing to air wing and even the numbering system are different, too.

I will look for something for you, there are some photos and drawings of Yorktown's aircrafts in this books.
----

Elvis965, thank you for the answer!


Attachments:
File comment: Squadron/Signal in Action series: #1036 F6F Hellcat, #1029 and #1145 F4U Corsair (two different books), #1064 SBD Dauntless, #1054 SB2C Helldiver, #1082 TBM/TBF Avenger
InAction_Helldiver.jpg
InAction_Helldiver.jpg [ 30.86 KiB | Viewed 1238 times ]
File comment: Squdron/Signal Detail & Scale series: #8255 F4U Corsair Part 1 (Part 2 deals with the postwar versions), #8248 SBD Dauntless, #8252 SB2C Helldiver, #8253 TBM & TBF Avenger
DandS_Helldiver.jpg
DandS_Helldiver.jpg [ 38.62 KiB | Viewed 1240 times ]
File comment: Osprey Combat Aircraft series: #10 SBD Dauntless Units of World War 2, #3 Helldiver ..., #16 TBF/TBM Avenger ...
Helldiver_Units.jpg
Helldiver_Units.jpg [ 28.98 KiB | Viewed 1238 times ]

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Last edited by Essex on Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:31 am 
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There is a very good reference book about the aircraft camouflage and marking. It gives the exact size and position of every markings for every aircraft types, the colors and patterns for the different camouflage schemes illustrated by photos and drawings etc.


Attachments:
Monogram.jpg
Monogram.jpg [ 28.96 KiB | Viewed 1242 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:49 am 
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SeanF wrote:
Would anyone know of a good reference for the aircraft markings for the various Essexes? I speak of the tail and wing code symbols and/or letters (and whatever colored spinners, cowlings, etc.) used to tell the airgroups apart. Specifically (at the moment), I'd like to know what the CV-10's aircraft markings ought to be between Sept. '44 and early '45 (while the aircraft were still in three-tone camoflage) If anyone can just tell me that for now, I'd really appreciate it; but I'd also love to buy a book on the subject for future projects.

- Sean F.


Sean, Air Group 3 was aboard at that time taking over Air Group 1's aircraft (when Air Groups changed, the aircraft usually stayed aboard; just the aircrew were transferred) except for Air Group 1's F6F-3 Hellcats. Air Group 3 received new F6F-5s.

Air Group 3 (CVG-3) was aboard USS Yorktown CV-10 from October 1944-March 1945 (Reynolds, pp. 187-242). Air Group 3 was composed of fifty-four F6F-5 and -5P Hellcats (no night fighters), twenty-four SB2C-4 Helldivers, and just eighteen TBM Avengers (John Sheridan; Reynolds, pg. 189). All Helldivers and Avengers were painted three-tone blue/white with a small white diagonal stripe on fin and on fuselage side just forward of the national insignia. Propeller spinners were willow green (a medium green similar to, if not actually, zinc chromate green). Each aircraft was identified with a numeral also in white painted on the fuselage forward of the national insignia and on the tail. TBM (General Motors-built) Avengers had interior green cockpits throughout, not bronze green like TBFs did.

While aboard USS Yorktown CV-10, Air Group 3 retained Air Group 1's Helldivers and Avengers but received new F6F-5 and F6F-5P photo recon Hellcats probably painted overall glossy sea blue (Reynolds, pg. 189). F6F-5P variants substituted a 20mm cannon with 200 rounds for the innermost machine gun in each wing (pilotfriend.com). CVG-3 aircraft carried the white diagonal stripe through the January 12, 1945 strikes on Saigon (Reynolds, photo on pg. 214). CVG-3 transitioned to Yorktown's new aircraft identification markings by February 1st: a diagonal white field on the tail, white triangle on the wings and willow green propeller spinners (Reynolds, pg. 226). VB-3 Helldivers wore a diving black panther insignia (see photo below).

Attachment:
File comment: Air Group 3 (VB-3) SB2C-4 with Yorktown markings as they appeared after February 1st, 1945. Prior to that date, the aircraft carried a white diagonal stripe on the fin and fuselage sides rather than the white diagonal panel on the tail and white triangles on the wings. Note VB-3's diving black panther squadron insignia below the windscreen.
e1694a86.jpg
e1694a86.jpg [ 103.71 KiB | Viewed 1261 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Air Group 3 (VB-3) SB2C-4. Interesting tip: note that the modeler has correctly painted the outermost perforated flap white and the rest of the bottom of the wing is medium blue. So, if showing Helldivers on your Yorktown with wings folded upwards, paint the bottom of the wing medium blue but the flap WHITE.
b4e8208e.jpg
b4e8208e.jpg [ 127.35 KiB | Viewed 1247 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Air Group 1 (VF-1) F6F-3 to show you how the white diagonal stripes appeared on Yorktown's aircraft. Note the willow green spinner. Also note that Yorktown landed her F6F-3s for her late 1944 refit so these 3-tone Hellcats were not aboard from August 1944 onwards. Air Group 3 came aboard after the refit and received new F6F-5s, probably painted glossy sea blue overall.
F6F_Yorktown.jpg
F6F_Yorktown.jpg [ 38.33 KiB | Viewed 1259 times ]


Short wartime history of CVG-3: originally assigned to USS Saratoga CV-3, and by December 7th, 1941 was composed of:

Bombing Squadron Three (VB-3) with 21 Douglas SBD-2/3 Dauntless
Fighting Squadron Three (VF-3) with 7 Grumman F4F-3 and 2 F4F-3A Wildcats
Scouting Squadron Three (VS-3) with 22 Douglas SBD-2/3 Dauntless
Torpedo Squadron Three (VT-3) with 12 Douglas TBD-1 Devastators

Air Group Three's combat experience began early in 1942. CVG-3 was detached from Saratoga while Saratoga was being refit and altered following a Japanese submarine torpedo attack that damaged the ship in January 1942. Air Group 3 (CVG-3) was then transferred from Saratoga to reinforce CVG-5 aboard USS Yorktown CV-5 after Coral Sea and fought at Midway. Air Group 3 was home aboard Saratoga from at least May-August, 1943 (USN accident reports). Loss reports for August 1944 indicate that VF-3 and VT-3 were aboard USS Ranger CV-4 that month off Hawaii, probably participating in night carrier training. It is not clear if VB-3 was with them but it is likely. Air Group 3 came aboard Yorktown CV-10 in October 1944. Two months later, CVG-3 endured the costly hurricanes off the Philippines in December 1944 and flew missions in support of the invasion of Iwo Jima and strikes on Saigon, Formosa, Hong Kong, and Tokyo sinking 44 enemy ships, 15 of which were combatants.

Air Group 3's squadrons early in the war:
VB-3 was aboard USS Enterprise CV-6 for the Doolittle Raid under the command of LCDR Max Leslie (cv6.org). By Midway, Max Leslie had been promoted to command the air group and the group was back aboard USS Yorktown CV-5. Bombing 3, under the command of LT Dave Shumway, is credited with destroying IJN Soryu on the morning of June 4th( cv6.org). Yorktown CV-5 was under attack upon their return so some ditched due to low fuel (including air group commander Max Leslie - rescued by the cruiser USS Astoria) while others landed on, then flew from, USS Enterprise CV-6 for attacks on IJN Hiryu (cv6.org). VB-3 contributed 15 of the 25 dive bombers that destroyed IJN Hiryu on the afternoon of June 4th (cv6.org).

VF-3, the "Felix the Cat" squadron for a time, was transferred to USS Yorktown CV-5 whose own fighter squadron (VF-42) had been decimated at Coral Sea. Commanded by Lieutenant Commander John S. Thach, (famous for the "Thach Weave") and had received new F4F-4 aircraft just before departing Peal Harbor for Midway (VF-3 pilot Judson Brodie). During the afternoon of June 4th, VF-3 provided the combat air patrol defending USS Yorktown CV-5. During the patrol, Thach probably shot down Lieutenant Joichi Tomonaga, leader of the attacking Japanese torpedo planes (NARA). VF-3 was aboard USS Enterprise CV-6 during the the Battles of Wake Island, Marcus Island, Guadalcanal, and the Eastern Solomons. After being decorated by the President, promoted two grades to Lt. Cmdr., and taking a short tour to sell war bonds, Butch O’Hare returned to Hawaii just 10 days after the Battle of Midway. He was given command of his old squadron, VF-3, while John Thach was reassigned to training of new combat pilots in the US. O’Hare began assembling a hand-picked team of pilots and enlisted men to join him in this new squadron in Maui. Later, when the new squadron was redesignated VF-6, he also managed to take the Felix the Cat symbol from VF-3 to the new squadron (US Navy) which led to arguments between VF-6 and a newly formed VF-3 later that year. The Navy restored the insignia to VF-3 which later became VF-31.

The original VT-3 flew from USS Yorktown CV-5 and was destroyed at Midway on the morning of June 4th - only one pilot survived to return to the task force where he ditched; his gunner dying of wounds (cv6.org). Reformed, the new VT-3, under the command of LCDR C. M. Jett, flew new TBF-1 Avengers from USS Enterprise CV-6 during the Battle of the Eastern Solomons during the late summer of 1942 (cv6.org).


Attachments:
File comment: Bombing 3's diving black panther insignia
obwise4.jpg
obwise4.jpg [ 5.88 KiB | Viewed 2114 times ]
File comment: VF-3 flight jacket
421A.JPG
421A.JPG [ 96.57 KiB | Viewed 1237 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:47 pm 
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There is a good possibility that tri-color Hellcats were aboard in limited numbers in late 1944. When VF-3 First reported aboard they had 6 F6F-3s and two -3Ps. By November they were solely -5 Models, but in December they received two spare -3s and reported at least one remaining in February/March. Generally, the replacement aircraft were from CASUs and were not repainted... so -3 replacement aircraft were in tricolor even after the order to paint in Glossy Sea Blue in every instance that I have seen. That's not to say that there weren't -3s in glossy sea blue, I just haven't seen shots on deck.

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 Post subject: CV-16 question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:08 am 
I am going to attempt to build a CV-16 Lexington in 1/350 scale (early 1944) and was wondering what current kit is the best to use: Yorktown, Franklin or Essex? Also, what paint is the best to use for her MS21 paint scheme? I currently use poly scale paints. I think they look the best. Any help would be great. Thanks,

Scott


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:18 pm 
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You're a little stuck. It would be better to start with the Franklin kit for the extra quad 40s, etc, but she retained the single quad 40mm on the stern that the kit doesn't provide. One way or the other you'll have to either trade or scratch-build some parts.

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 Post subject: CV-16
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:05 pm 
Thanks. I'll start with the Franklin. Any suggestions on the MS-21 paint scheme?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:16 pm 
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I use WEM paints for my naval subjects, sorry.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:11 pm 
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MS 21 is 5-N for vertical surfaces, basically - PollyScale has that in their line, labelled simply "5-N Navy Blue".

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 Post subject: CV-16
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:26 am 
Thanks. I did not know how accurate there 5-N was.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:58 pm 
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New Yorktown build photos posted here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32648&p=232571#p232571

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:39 am 
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steve your work is inspiring and amazing :thumbs_up_1: !

i do have a question for the peanut gallery though. i'm doing the dragon 1/700 lexington and converting it to the Intrepid circa '45ish. when it comes to the conflagulation station, acording to the AOTS:intrepid it should look like this:

http://www.warshipmodels.com/~users/SteveLarsen/IM003376.jpg


but all the reference photos and such on all the essexes it looks like this:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/download/file.php?id=4122&mode=view

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/download/file.php?id=3385&mode=view

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/download/file.php?id=3381&mode=view

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/download/file.php?id=3382&mode=view

the photos of the model were from steves amazing build.(i hope you don't mind steve if you do i'll pull them off. i just needed someting to show refernce) the others i pulled from elsewhere on this site. which one is correct? shurly the essex wouldn't have been the only of her sister ships to have a different design to this important part of the ship, could she? as this is one of the hang ups on my hanger deck i would apreciate any info or guidance in this manner.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:48 am 
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There were minor variations between ships as well as time periods. She was built at Newport News, the same shipyard that CVs 9 through 13 were laid down at, so I'd say you can base Intrepid's station off of photos you find of them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:58 pm 
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Steve Larsen wrote:
New Yorktown build photos posted here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32648&p=232571#p232571

Just outstanding Sir! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :big_grin:


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