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 Post subject: Re: Qestions?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:21 pm 
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Gang;

I'm not sure exactly what you guys are looking for, but if it has something to do with the planes ranged and spotted on Yorktown for a certain time on 4 June off Midway, I can provide details on the planes (and crews).

Mark E. Horan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:12 pm 
Hi Mark,

I had hoped you would join in! I think what Gordon is looking for is the deck spot (which types where on deck) for the photo in the "Glorious Page in Our History" book. I presume it is so he can match it on his Yourtown build. That leads to the question of who took off first on the morning strike, the SBD's or the TBD's. Our sources seem to conflict.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:54 am 
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Hi Mark,

Yes, I would like to know how the planes were ranged and spotted on the deck of Yorktown 4 june 1942 at 0930 and in what order did they take off for their first strike. As Dick has pointed out this is for my Yorktown build.

While I was looking at pictures in the books I have tonight, I noticed that Yorktown had two flags flying at the same time (one on each mast) and a single flag flying from either mast at other times. I thought that was strange.

TIA

Gordon


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:18 am 
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Gang;

The problem with conflicting sources from John Lundstroms "The First Team" and his "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral" and "A Glorious Page in Our History" is simply additional research (from an unimpeachable source), photographic evidence, and fixing a misunderstanding by some participants since the strike as launched, and the original plan, were different.

I can give specifics of the spot from home tonight but ... the strike was planned in two deckloads as follows (Forward -> aft):

1st deckload:
VB-3 (17 SBD-3s) [a 1,000# bomb each] spotted forward in reverse order
VT-3 (12 TBD-1s) [a MkXIII torpedo each] spotted aft in reverse order

VB-3 was to form up and depart while climbing to altitude (I'll look it up) VT-3 was to form up and depart while climbing to 2,500'

2nd deckload was on the hangar deck, armed, fueled, and warming up, to be ranged as follows:

"VS-5" [really VB-5] (17 SBD-3) [a 1,000# bomb each] to be spotted aft via #2 and #3 elevator
VF-3 (6 F4F-4) to be spotted forward via the #1 elevator

VF-3 was to form up, climb to 3,000, and make a "running rendezvous" with VT-3. VS-5 was to form up, climb to altitude, and follow along, about 15 minutes behind VB-3 with spot and takeoff times added in, which would be shortened by using a faster cruise setting.

In the event, as the first deckload was launching, Admiral Fletcher opted to hold VS-5 behind as a ready "reserve". Thus, they never were ranged in their entirety and none were launched - just VF-3 was.

The first wave range, from AFT, would be spotted thus: VT-3 in reverse order (Aft->Forward) [T-1, T-2, T-3, T-4, T-5, T-6, T-7, T-8, T-9, T-10, T-11, T-12] armed with torpedoes. A live Mk-XIII has a steel body and a light navy grey warhead. In sunlight, in the shadows under the fuselage, the body appears to be bronze. In front of them was VB-3, again in reverse order (Aft->Forward) [B-1, B-2, B-3, B-4, B-5, B-6, B-7, B-8, B-9, B-10, B-11, B-12, B-13, B-14, B-15, B-16, B-17].

IIRC (and I'll have to check when I get home for the various launch times), the relief CAP (a six-plane division of F4F-4s) may have been spotted forward of this for some period.

In the hanger deck overhead were eight unoperational aircraft: three TBD-1s (one without wings), three SBDs, and two smashed up F4F-4s. On the deck itself, were the 23 aircraft scheduled for the 2nd deckload of the strike and the reserve F4Fs of VF-3, seven if a reserve division was ranged and spotted, thirteen if it was down here. The F4Fs would have been around the #1 elevator, the SBDs around the #2 and between it and the #3 elevator. Regardless, the rolling hanger doors on both sides were open.

As for flags, that is not really something I paid much attention to, except ... ALL of the ships' crew that was topside, in fact all of those topside on any if the ships in TF-17, vividly recall the moment (and I don't recall when that was now) when Captaiin Buckmaster ordered the ships battleflag raised. It was the largest flag on the ship (noticeably larger than anything she normally flew) and was, I understand, run up in addition to what she had been flying. That is likely the answer to the flag question.

BTW, there was a substantial amount of movie footage shot on Yorktown that day, most of which is still extant and much of which I have seen (I was used by National Geographic to identify period appropriate footage for them to use for the Yorktown special - not that they listened - from the considerable amount they had acquired, and found the Yorktown footage which includes the last landing ever made on CV-5 by Tom Cheek of VF-3 when his battle damaged F4F-4, F-16, flipped over alongside the island and clogged up her deck just prior to the Hiryu's VB were picked up on RADAR).

There is a walkway on the port (flight deck) side of the island, about 16' or so high (my perhaps inaccurate estimate) that had words written on it in quite large letters, white IIRC, giving a warning about safety with spinning propellers or some such. I MAY have this on film at home - I'll check.

Hope this helps. If anyone wants additional details, you may always contact me at -> mhoran@snet.net <- It would be nice to get a non-SPAM e-mail once and a while :)

Mark E. Horan


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:50 pm 
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Hi Mark,

Thank you for your reply to my questions. I appreciate the time and effort that you and others take to help all us ship modelers.

I have a Monogram 1/48 TBD on the to build pile. The info in the Mk XIII torpedo is a great help also. In my notes, I have the bronze color listed for the body. I'll now paint the body steel and give it a dusting of bronze.

TA

Gordon


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 Post subject: Re: Answered questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:38 pm 
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Gordon Bjorklund wrote:
RNfanDan,
"...the only way I knew to get 1/700 rudder stripes was to order another [Trumpeter] Lexington kit.."



You might do well, if you have not already done so, to check out Starfighter Decals. Mark made me a custom set of USN aircraft markings for TBD, SBD, and F4F planes in 1:600 scale last year. These were for an intended 1:600 Yorktown conversion and a semi-scratchbuilt Independence, and included period-accurate roundels in three sizes, as well as the CORRECTLY STRIPED and pre-shaped tailfin patterns for all three planes! They were something to see, and I will go nowhere else for my needs.

While I do not speak for Mark, I would suspect he can produce these in 1:700 and 1:350, as well. In fact, I am preparing to build & detail several airgroups for my current 1:700 A/C kits, and will likely be in touch with Starfighter myself, pretty soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Airgroup markins
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:57 pm 
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Gang;

Regarding a/c markings on USS Yorktown aircraft, they were different than any of the other Pacific Fleet carriers, both at Coral Sea (with her ouw squadrons excepting VF-42) and at Midway, with Saratoga squadrons and her own VB-5 operating under the title "VS-5".

As for the marketed decals, it is worth noting that the aircraft of the Pacific Fleet's four (in theory) carriers were grouped, administratively into two carrier divisions. The aircraft of Carrier Division One used both white and black. USS Lexington used primarily WHITE (VB-2 was black), while USS Saratoga's VB-3 & VT-3 were BLACK and VF-3 & VS-3 were WHITE).

Carrier Division Two used primarily BLACK. What white USS Enterprise used swould not be visible at 1/350 scale. Yorktown, having moved to the Atlantic, actually developed her own unique scheme using only BLACK.

USS Hornet, though not a PacFlt carrier, was more similar to CarDiv 1, using mostly BLACK (VF-8, VB-8, VT-8) while VS-8 used WHITE.

Details for Yorktown are at Coral Sea are: (all BLACK and no LSO stripes)
VF-42: SIDE large F-#, forward of Star; TAIL large # on forward fin
VB-5: SIDE large ##, rear of star
VS-5: SIDE large ##, rear of star; TAIL large S on forward fin
VT-2: SIDE large T-# rear of star

Details for Midway are:
VF-3: SIDE large WHITE ## forward of Star, no LSO stripe
VB-3: SIDE large BLACK ## forward of star, one LSO stripe p+s
VB-5 ("VS-5"): large BLACK ## rear of star, no LSO stripe
VT-3: large BLACK ## forward of star, no LSO stripe

Hope this helps:

Mark E. Horan


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 9:43 pm 
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The island is done. Now on to the a/c for the hangar deck.


Last edited by Gordon Bjorklund on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Hull finished
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:41 pm 
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I've got the hull just about finished, I need to add the crew and four 20mm's and then I can install the flight deck.



Gordon


Last edited by Gordon Bjorklund on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Update pictures
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:38 pm 
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The ship is almost done. Just a couple of touch ups needed. Now to finish the a/c and add the gun and deck cr

With any luck, I should have her done by next weekend.

Then it's on to Trumpeter's 1/700 USS Washington BB-56.

I sure hope I don't go into Yorktown Class Carrier withdrawals.

Gordon


Last edited by Gordon Bjorklund on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Finished pictures
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:35 am 
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The USS Yorktown CV-5 is finally finished. One more US carrier added to my fleet.
I think that I will never get tired of the way there early war Yorktown Class Carriers
looked. I do need to do a "Midway" Hornet, then I will have all three sisters during that
battle.

Gordon


Last edited by Gordon Bjorklund on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:48 am 
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Gentlemen... I was shown this photo today by Jon Warneke. It's 9 megs, but it's a big shot of Yorktown's port side, late April 1942.

*Edit* THe original has been moved but this is the photograph for discussion in case it gets moved again in the future and the link broken.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:16 pm 
Great photo! It has been published before, but I haven't seen this level of magnification. But scanning this photo has raised a new question. What is the antenna on the stack that appears to be even with the forward smoke duct? It just doesn't show up on the previously published version. (too small)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:31 pm 
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Dick J wrote:
Great photo! It has been published before, but I haven't seen this level of magnification. But scanning this photo has raised a new question. What is the antenna on the stack that appears to be even with the forward smoke duct? It just doesn't show up on the previously published version. (too small)


Dick, I've been a-google'n and it appears to be the same antenna that Hornet had on her second tripod platform until CXAM went on her tripod top and the SC-1 moved aft to the main mast. I have a radical new theory and I think I have identified the antenna. It appears to be an SA-1 air search radar set. This set was designed for smaller escort ships like DE's and even PC's as their primary air search set. The SA-1 may have been adopted as a secondary or backup set for the carriers, long before installation of dual high power main air search sets came into practice in mid 1942. The SA-1 antenna was about 6 feet by 5 feet and it was pedestal mounted. Compare to the 15 x 16 foot CXAM antenna on Yorktown's tripod and this approximate size extrapolation works out. That means that secondary air search sets were aboard the CV's much earlier than we previously thought, as early as Feb. 42 verifiable in the case of CV-8. Check these links out: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Radar/Radar-1.html and http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Antennas/Antennas.htm.

Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:11 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
I absolutely love that this long after the war we still have things to learn about these ships!


Tracy,
Dick J. and I have been speculating about that little antenna on Hornet's second tripod platform for a while. Dick has a similar antenna puzzle in a fuzzy shot of Lexington, CV-2, so it too may be an SA-1. The hi-rez CV-5 shot you posted was an eye-popper for detail. Examined many times in smaller versions, but never caught that little antenna up there until I could zoom in! We need to look closer at that Lexington shot that Dick J. has, and see if my backup secondary search set theory holds up.

Cautionary note to all on the Antenna web page I linked to above. The antenna photo listed for XAF is correct, and CXAM is the same unit, but in production designation. The next one listed in the CXAM to CXAM-1 transition is, however, incorrect. That long, very low U-channel shaped unit is a Mark 3 main battery fire control antenna. CXAM-1 correctly appears on the SC/SC-1 transition box, but no shot of SC/SC-1 appears. The the next box shows SC-4 (similar to SC-2 and 3). For a look at the squarish SC/SC-1, any photo of Hornet's island, pre-July 1942 will show it atop her tripod, and post July 1942, SC-1 will be on her main mast at the aft end of her funnel. Most of us are familiar with SC and SC-1 however.
Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:31 pm 
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Does anyone know where I can get this kit? I know it's old and there are no hobby shops in my area save for a small one in the mall where I work (they carry approximately six ship kits, mostly the Missouri and John C. Stennis). I love the Yorktown and Lexington and would like to get the Yorktown to go with the Lexington I'm building now...

Also, I'm considering a diorama of the Coral Sea battle group (at least as much of it as I could build). Is there a way to modify the Hornet 1/700 kit from Trumpeter to make it an accurate Yorktown without making parts from scratch?

Any help would be appreciated!

Nick D


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:22 am 
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Nick,

Do a Google search for "1/542 Midway Carriers" and that should give you places to buy the (05014) Revell of Germany kit. It has parts to do all of the Yorktown Class Carriers. This kit is really rough, be prepared to spend a long time fixing it up. It's not the kit it used to be.

I just finished a 1/700 (Midway) USS Yorktown CV-5 using the Tamiya Enterprise and Hornet kits. The list of parts and pictures are on page two in the "Picture Post" section of this site. I thought it was easier to use the Tamiya kits than to modify the Trumpeter Hornet kit.

HTH

Gordon


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:57 pm 
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I had high hopes for this book, given that the author, Robert Stern, had done a fine job on his Lexington Class hardcover book published by the USNI. I was sorely disappointed in this new "In Action" series. It is basically one giant cut and paste job from commonly used internet sites, and includes all of the usual glaring oft-repeated errors in Yorktown class data. All of the photos are available to anyone with a PC. I did not see a single one that is not available on line. Indeed, all of the grainy low-detail reproductions look like low-resolution downloads of internet photos.

As examples of the errors, we have the usual misquoted OA length figure of 809 feet (which was the hull length only for all three) for CV-5 and 6, while CV-8's flight deck length figure is quoted at 824.9", but then, that was the right figure for actual overall length of all 3. Hornet's cylindrical director tub in front of her island for her #2 1.1" quad is described as a prominent armored conning tower! (A mistake I've seen in other places). The flight deck length of 802 feet is misleading, as it includes only the flat surface. (Hint, measure the official USN plans- 816 feet from the ends of the ramps!) The width given of 86ft. is the available width of the flight deck from port side wall of the island to the edge, instead of the proper overall width figure of 109 ft., but at least it is stated as such...it goes on and on. Hornet gets the shortest shrift of all.

The author seems confused about the Enterprise and Yorktown navigation bridge as well, stating that Enterprise had the nav bridge reduced in size in 1942, enclosed and splinter shielded. Not so. Her nav bridge remained as built until 10/43. He believes Yorktown's external degaussing cables were added after Coral Sea and just before Midway. I've got photos of her entering Pearl on 27May42 with the cables in evidence. In fact, the photo he used on top of page 14 shows them in place as she enters Pearl on that date. The color line drawings have numerous detail errors. CV-6's drawings look more like CV-8, including a CV-8 style forward flight deck (a reversal of the usual error!) You get the idea. Minimal research.

In short, if you seek reliable data on the Yorktowns, and good photos, read this forum and surf the net. Save your money!

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:20 pm 
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Gordon Bjorklund wrote:
Nick,

Do a Google search for "1/542 Midway Carriers" and that should give you places to buy the (05014) Revell of Germany kit. It has parts to do all of the Yorktown Class Carriers. This kit is really rough, be prepared to spend a long time fixing it up. It's not the kit it used to be.


Yes it is a Monogram product in vintage age. I also notice that Nichimo has a 1/500 Hiryu carrier which is comparatively the same scale. It is an interesting pair since can represent the last fight of Battle of Midway (the Big E vs Hiryu) :thumbs_up_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:21 pm 
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Matsuo Akira wrote:
Gordon Bjorklund wrote:
Nick,

Do a Google search for "1/542 Midway Carriers" and that should give you places to buy the (05014) Revell of Germany kit. It has parts to do all of the Yorktown Class Carriers. This kit is really rough, be prepared to spend a long time fixing it up. It's not the kit it used to be.


Yes it is a Monogram product in vintage age. I also notice that Nichimo has a 1/500 Hiryu carrier which is comparatively the same scale. It is an interesting pair since can represent the last fight of Battle of Midway (the Big E vs Hiryu) :thumbs_up_1:


Be careful not to confuse the Revell 1/542 scale Midway CLASS large carriers (CV-41 to 43) with the Revell 1/487 scale (often misquoted as 1/480 scale) Yorktown Class carriers, which have been marketed in various releases as the "Battle of Midway Carrier" (this version has parts that allegedly allow all three to be built, but not really. It can be built from the box as a prewar CV-5 or CV-6 and as a late 1942 CV-6 only). The versions sold as Enterprise (late 1942 CV -6 armament) or Yorktown (prewar armament) come with 20 SBD's and the version sold as Hornet comes with 16 B-25s and the prewar armament. The CV-6 armament would actually be much closer to the true CV-8 fit. The true scale of the Revell Yorktown class kit is 1/487. It was not a Monogram kit, ever. This was an original Revell USA tool. Revell of Germany last released it as the "Battle of Midway Carrier" three ship version with 20 SBD's and both armament setups. I picked up some of the RoG release kits and compared with some earlier Revell issues I have in stock, and I think RoG cleaned up the molds a bit before producing the last run, so look for this one if you can't hook up with a first run Revell edition.

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