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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:27 am 
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I think you are correct about the fake roads atop Amagi's flight deck. Good eye. I'm guessing it was paint, because one good rainstorm is going to wash away most of the dust or sand.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:40 am 
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Thanks Dan!

You might be right that this was painted on.
For one, it does look more like paint remains than ingrained dust (which indeed should wash away). But also, they seem to have been using Sand colored paint on the ship anyway when camouflaging it, as we discussed earlier:
Image
So why not use it for the 'roads' too? :)


Another observation:
On Katsuragi, the aft deck end white (and red?) stripes show up nicely in this shot:
Image
The camouflage pattern of the deck seems to continue right through these stripes however?!
Did they try to overpaint the stripes to make them less conspicuous, accidentally or on purpose letting them still shine through?

On Amagi, something similar seems to be the case.
On photos, her stripes do show, but seem rather vague. Also, the remains of some other patterns seem to be running through them.
Image

Image

They are a simpler strait pattern instead of the chevrons on Katsuragi.
This is how it looks like in the color movie:
Image
They are present, but look quite green!
Overpainted, but still showing through is my best guess?
What do you think?

Also other deck marking seem to be scarce. I can only make out some remains of interrupted longitudinal lines, most clearly to the starboard side, and a little in the centre. They look a bit brighter than the 'tail' stripes however.

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:49 pm 
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When operational, all the IJN CVs had alternating red and white striping on the round down at the stern to mark the end of the flight deck. So, that part was clearly painted over.

I can't speak to the other striping, other than it is likely that some of that, too, was part of her original flight deck markings.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Ok, many thanks Dan!

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:56 am 
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And another one! :)
(yes, I do find researching paint and weathering aspects equally fun as construction aspects…)

This light 'line' is very obvious is all footage of the sunk Amagi:
Image

To me, it looks rather like weathering instead of something painted: runoff of some substance after she was sunk.
It is not perpendicular to the flight deck but follows gravity perfectly. Also in this close-up, you can see its' streaky appearance:
Image

In the video, it looks like a very light tan color or even white.
Image

If it is the stains of some liquid running down, or another substance being washed down, it seems to originate from the open crane well near the starboard edge (top) of the flight deck. Maybe this crane well had been filled in with something?
Painting this shouldn't pose any problems, but it would be interesting to know what it actually is. But I have no idea what kind of substance it might have been? There should have been a serious volume of it to create such a big stain.
Any ideas?

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:48 am 
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Actually, I don't agree that it is run-off. The edges are too clean, sharp, straight and well delineated. Yes, some weathering has occurred because this is a post war photo, and you would expect some deterioration over time, given exposure to the elements. Most runoffs from a spill of some sorts will wash away after successive rains. My guess is that it was another road. My two cents.

I agree about research being fun, up to a point. :smallsmile:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Just tell me when we have reached that point, ok? :big_grin:

You might be right indeed! It does look very solid, is not repeated anywhere, and it is huge.
Maybe in this photo we can see it too, which looks like a road in that location indeed?
Image


One last observation/question:

The edges of the flight deck seem lighter than the rest of it. The width varies from section to section, but it seems neatly delineated.
Image

Also towards the bow, this is visible. There is no obvious reason for it, both the edge and rest of the deck look like continuous smooth steel plate, with no visible difference in material or surface texture.
Image

I've seen on several models of late war IJN carriers in green camo, the modeler painted the flight deck edge in grey. But that was always a metal edge next to a wooden flight deck. Amagi clearly never had a wooden deck.
In the movie, the edge looks green too, only clearly lighter:
Image

This famous shot of Zuiho shows the same effect. But sometimes the edge is lighter, but sometimes it is darker.
Image

So, any ideas what is going on here? What might cause this difference in shade?
First I was thinking it was related to parts of the deck which are overhanging the hull side, i.e. without internal spaces below them. Maybe these were constructed differently? But also the bigger overhanging deck sections which completely overhang the stern (and with Zuiho the bow) have it only at the edges, so I really don't have any idea…

Cheers!

Marijn


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Quote:
Just tell me when we have reached that point, ok? :big_grin:


I don't know about you, but I am WAY past that point on my tanker builds. I'm becoming a bit ridiculous about it, to be honest. :crazy:


IJN flight decks were ringed with metal plating covered by treading. The wood did not extend right to the flight deck edge. The width of the this strip varied by location, and class. Also, the edge of the flight deck had rain gutters attached to it.

Unfortunately, I do not have a photo of any Unryu type that clearly shows the treading. In looking at some of the more clear Amagi photos, I do wonder if the treading portions were ever applied. Seems like those would throw small shadows and be more obvious. Of course, the camera just may not be close enough. The Amagi close-ups at the stern do show the rain gutters, though.

Here's the classic shot of Zuikaku's flight deck with the treaded metal plating and rain gutters:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:20 am 
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Many thanks Dan,

Indeed, the more detailed shot of the stern, and also the one just to the front of the island, show the rain gutters and other details clearly, but no thread plating is visible. If there was a different texture/detail at those edges, it must be too fine to show up in these photo's, I would guess finer than the big thread plate pattern that was applied to previous IJN carriers?

Maybe they did use thread plate on the Unryu's, but a much finer pattern than the huge pattern they used previously?
Or since the rest of the deck was steel too, maybe they didn't make the edges with thread plate, but simply painted them of the deck with a non-slip coating?

It seems quite impossible to know hat is going on exactly with the current information. So I guess I will assume that whatever it is, it is too small to see at 1/700 anyway, and I will just paint its' visible effect on Amagi: lighter edges.

The results on those tankers are quite spectacular, so I certainly don't mind you going very far with their research! :)
But maybe it is slowing yo down too much?
I agree there is a point where the extra correcting work in the model will never, really never, be noticed by anyone but ourselves. But then again, we will know, won't we… :)

Thanks again! I'm very glad there is someone who has done such a ridiculous amount of research on the IJN on this forum! :)

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:56 am 
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Quote:
maybe they didn't make the edges with thread plate, but simply painted them of the deck with a non-slip coating?


Without a close-up, it's hard to say exactly what's going on. I suppose that a non slip coating is as good a possibility as any.

Quote:
I will just paint its' visible effect on Amagi: lighter edges.


Sounds reasonable to me.

Quote:
The results on those tankers are quite spectacular, so I certainly don't mind you going very far with their research! :)
But maybe it is slowing you down too much?


Thanks very much, Marijn. Maybe a little. I think it's the constant reworking of scratch-built parts that's taking the longest.

Quote:
I'm very glad there is someone who has done such a ridiculous amount of research on the IJN on this forum!


Feel free to join me :woo_hoo:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:37 pm 
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List of kits added to the first post of this topic, thanks to "Mister IJN", Dan Kaplan.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 2:27 am 
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Dan K wrote:
Feel free to join me :woo_hoo:


:) Ok, finally back at it! :)

I'm wondering about the radar on top of Amagi's (and Katsuragi's) islands at the end of the war.

These 1944 photo's show type 21 at that location, just like all publications state they were equipped with when built:

Amagi:
Image

Katsuragi:
Image

But The 'thingie' on top of Amagi's island after the war doesn't seem to be part of that, and it also doesn't looks like type 22:
Image
Image

This photograph, taken from the upper hangar deck of Katsuragi, upwards through the hole in her flight deck, shows what I think is the same 'thingie', but now with some extra 'spikes' and it looks more like a radar antenna:
Image

I think the single 'pole' on top of Amagi's island is the exact same type of antenna, but stripped down after the war?
But which type is this?

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Yeah, both Amagi and Katsuragi had their Type 21 radars replaced by type 13s, and, for a while, a Type 22 as well. For Amagi, I'm guessing it occurred during her March 1945 dockyard visit.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:54 am 
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Not to mention that towards the end of the war, a lot of the ships were being stripped of AA guns and radar sets for use elsewhere on the mainland. Not a far stretch to consider that this applied to Amagi.

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:32 am 
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Thanks Dan! And fast as usual! :)

I only wonder whether the drawer of that illustration hasn't been a bit fast with interpreting it as a 'regular' type 13 antenna:
- On the photo I posted of Katsuragi, the antenna is visible next to the type 13 on her mainmast, and they look rather different in detail.
- Also, it has a pyramidal base which isn't present on the illustration. That base was also not there when Amagi had it's type 21, so it seems specific for the new antenna.
- The 'spike' which remained on Amagi is much shorter than the type 13 on her mainmast (see pic with red circle). But of course I don't know whether this 'spike' ran all the way to the top of the antenna or not...

Maybe it is a type 13 radar indeed, but with a later type of antenna (maybe smaller and cheaper?)?

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
Not to mention that towards the end of the war, a lot of the ships were being stripped of AA guns and radar sets for use elsewhere on the mainland. Not a far stretch to consider that this applied to Amagi.

That would be possible indeed. The type 13 on her mainmast was still present after capsizing, making it a bit strange that the radar antenna on the island would be missing due to damage.

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:54 am 
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There were many variants on all models of radars. ALmost impossible to track them all.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:23 am 
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Many thanks Dan!

That's clearly the one, so type 13 it is indeed!

Dan K wrote:
For Amagi, I'm guessing it occurred during her March 1945 dockyard visit.

That would be quite likely indeed I think. This shot of her being attacked at 19 March vaguely shows something spiky on top of the top rear of the island, with a smaller item just in front of it. That might be already the type 13 and type 22 in place. The resolution is of course insufficient to be sure, but it doesn't look like type 21 to me…
Image

One more thought about her radars:
The wiki-page on Amagi states that the other type 13 was located 'on the aft starboard retractable radio mast'.
The photo below doesn't show any trace of it however. Maybe it was detached after (or closely before?) her sinking, and maybe the antennae on top of her island were too? Or maybe it was removed during the march refit and replaced by a new antenna on top of the island? Or maybe they all fell down due to the bombings (but that seems a bit unlikely to me)? Or maybe the wiki page is simply incorrect on this point (imagine that! :) )?
Any thoughts? :)
Image

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:57 am 
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Seems like a typo. A second Type 13 was usually mounted on the port, forward aerial mast, facing aft. Katsuragi had one. Amagi's is probably buried in the mud.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:33 pm 
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That clears that up too… :)

Many thanks Dan!

Cheers,

Marijn


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