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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:29 pm 
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Unless they have access to photos or sketches held in a private collection (highly unlikely) then, yes, subjective. Everything is based on available photos and the patterns recorded by the USN Navtech mission to Japan after the war. Report X-32 at: http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_ ... MJ_toc.htm

There are also some color plates of those sketches, but I don't have the link handy.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:22 pm 
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You know, I don't mean to come across as pedantic about this. I'm just trying to make the point that the kit makers as well as the modelers are going with research that it is, to a great degree, speculative. Just look at all the variations offered by the kit makers in their kit schemes. Who knows what information their graphic artists used? My point is - it's your model, and your best guess. All images courtesy of Hobby Search Japan.


Attachments:
Aoshima Unryu boxt art.jpg
Aoshima Unryu boxt art.jpg [ 153.72 KiB | Viewed 2717 times ]
Aoshima Unryu scheme.jpg
Aoshima Unryu scheme.jpg [ 96.23 KiB | Viewed 2717 times ]
Aoshima Unryu mfg built example.jpg
Aoshima Unryu mfg built example.jpg [ 62.25 KiB | Viewed 2717 times ]
Fujimi Unryu scheme 1 early war.jpg
Fujimi Unryu scheme 1 early war.jpg [ 92.66 KiB | Viewed 2717 times ]
PitRoad Unryu scheme.jpg
PitRoad Unryu scheme.jpg [ 173.03 KiB | Viewed 2717 times ]
PitRoad Amagi scheme.jpg
PitRoad Amagi scheme.jpg [ 163.52 KiB | Viewed 2717 times ]
Aoshima Katsuragi scheme.jpg
Aoshima Katsuragi scheme.jpg [ 100.55 KiB | Viewed 2717 times ]
PitRoad Katsuragi scheme.jpg
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:20 am 
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very interesting, thanks!

Also on the subject of camouflage:
What's up with the sides of the gun tubs of Amagi?

This link shows a famous pic of Amagi, and if you click on it you can see it very large and in detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IJN_c ... n_1946.jpg

In my opinion, it clearly shows some kind of yellow/sand coloured camouflage pattern on the sides of the gun tubs. It looks to be painted on in a rather haphazard way. I didn't see this yet on any drawing or scale model, but IMHO the photo shows it clearly.
It is also visible in these B&W shots:
Image

Image

In this shot, I can also see it on other parts of the stern superstucture:
Image

I am not a IJN specialist at all, but I never saw anything like this on other IJN ships. Maybe it was only applied as part of the extra heavy camouflage when Amagi was permanently moored at Kure, and rather unique?

So my question: are there any other examples, and is there any more information on why, how and exactly in what colour this was applied?

Many thanks,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:49 am 
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There is no information other than what the photo record shows, which is, as you have already surmised, additional and impromptu camouflage on a smaller scale within the overall schemes. Many of the other sunken ships around Kure seems to show this to one degree or another. Tone's bridge comes to mind, as does Ise'e.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:21 am 
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Many thanks Dan!

That will be an interesting detail to add to the Amagi model I'm planning.

That makes me think it would be great to build a model of Kasagi before the bombing raids, complete with camouflage netting between the ship and shore, and fake structures and trees on the flight deck. But that one is for someone else to do! :)

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 5:04 am 
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As Amagi had her AA-guns stripped after her sinking, I will have to build the platforms without guns.

In this video, it is visible what the mounting points for the 127mm guns looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEbWz4ulESM

But what did the 25mm mounting points look like?
These pics give a hint:
Image
Image

But is there anything clearer?

So, in general: are there any clearer pics, or drawings, of both 127mm and 25mm gun mounting points to be found? Maybe from other ships?

Many thanks in advance!

Marijn


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:08 pm 
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Best examples that I've got. I actually thought the 12.7cm mounts were also on a raised ring but, perhaps not.


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Kasagi scrapping postwar, stern 25mm emplacements, MS #56.jpg
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Junyo postwar 12-7cm position  NHS_-_SC218542.JPG
Junyo postwar 12-7cm position NHS_-_SC218542.JPG [ 93.61 KiB | Viewed 2380 times ]
Tone sunk at Kure midships.jpg
Tone sunk at Kure midships.jpg [ 118.4 KiB | Viewed 2380 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:25 am 
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Many thanks Dan! These are great shots!

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 12:29 pm 
Dan K wrote:
Best examples that I've got. I actually thought the 12.7cm mounts were also on a raised ring but, perhaps not.


The very top picture is 25mm triple or twin mounts. The middle photo is for the famous 127mm gun mounts. These can be seen clearly as well if you look at Junyo's photos.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:31 am 
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Recently, I was pointed to a French Facebook site that was posting various Life magazine images of the postwar IJN ships/wrecks. Several were of Amagi, many which have not been posted before and are mostly taken closer in. Some details are hard to make out because of the shade and contrast, but if you lighten them in Photoshop (or another program), those detail do come out, as I show in one of the views.


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Amagi postwar by Life 1.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 1.jpg [ 96.01 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 2.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 2.jpg [ 129.97 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 2a.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 2a.jpg [ 119.47 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 2b.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 2b.jpg [ 119.99 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 2c.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 2c.jpg [ 130.23 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 3.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 3.jpg [ 126.55 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 3a.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 3a.jpg [ 125.47 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 3b7.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 3b7.jpg [ 113.32 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 4.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 4.jpg [ 111.56 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
Amagi postwar by Life 4 alt.jpg
Amagi postwar by Life 4 alt.jpg [ 123.22 KiB | Viewed 1982 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:33 am 
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one more.


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Amagi postwar by Life 5 alt.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:34 am 
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Fantastic photos. :thumbs_up_1:
Probably to Amagi I will create Unryu.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:27 pm 
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Here's two more from that archive. These are of the unfinished Aso. She was used as a target/test ship in July, 1945 when 60% complete, though I have no idea what the Japanese might have been testing at that point in the war. She was raised postwar and scrapped. In these photos, she has already been raised. Good views of the hull plating and damage.


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Aso postwar by Life 1.jpg
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Aso postwar by Life 2.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:29 pm 
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One more, but not from that archive.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:09 am 
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Great photos, thanks for posting. :)

I like Unryus, they did nothing, but were handsome ships.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:18 am 
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Arriving at the painting fase of my capsized Amagi, I'am having some questions about colors.
First up: which colors were the hangar spaces painted? Hangar decks, bulkheads, ceiling, elevator well bulkheads, ...

On Amagi herself, I cannot seem to find anything really. The color video of her ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEbWz4ulESM ) only shows some rusty colors on the hangar deck where the flight deck was blown away, which is to be expected as a result of the bomb damage:
Image

Image

The resolution of the video is very low however. I would guess there would still be some remains of the original paint colors, especially in the more hidden and less damaged parts of the hangar. That would certainly make for the most interesting looking model… :)

This colored photograph of the front elevator well of Kasagi suggest a mid grey for decks and bulkheads. Maybe some white for the side walls (small segment to the left under and behind the ladder)? But it is a colorized photo of course…
Image

This post-war photo of Katsuragis' hangars shows much darker decks than walls and ceilings. Grey decks and the rest white maybe? The elevator well side bulkhead is dark too. Also grey?
Image

Most well-finished models I have seen of late war IJN carriers in green camo show grey or white hangars, but there is no consistency.

I'm guessing there is probably no definite answer to this question. But maybe there is some more evidence I haven't seen yet?
Maybe not from Unryu class, but maybe from other IJN carriers, in late-war green camo or not?

Many thanks for any help!

Marijn


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:12 am 
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Internal decks are grey, internal bulkheads and overheads are white.

According to records, all camouflage applied to the IJN CVs in the summer of 1944 followed the general rule of two tone greens. Colorized version of Amagi below. The camouflage on the flight deck is open to a little interpretation regarding the additions of some browns and the visibility of false gun turret outlines. I've seen various representations.

Hopefully, I'm answering your questions.


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Amagi, full size, colorized by Alex F.jpg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:57 am 
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Many thanks Dan!

You can always be counted on for a quick and well informed answer! :)

That answers my question indeed, and much more clearly than I had expected. :)

The hul colors and pattern don't pose any real problem indeed. The pic you posted, together with its' higher resolution B&W version, and the well-known color shot of her after capsizing show everything pretty clearly.

The flight deck is much harder indeed.
I had noted the earlier discussion on this above.
Since I ' m painting Amagi as she appears in that movie, with a heavily weathered flight deck, I think my best bet is to do what they thought me in art school: just paint what I see! :)
Unfortunately, the movie is not sharp at all and doesn't show details good, and sharper photographs of the flight deck are B&W. So it's not easy to make sense of what I see, so I can translate it to paint.
So now I'm going through the process of studying the movie, the photographs, comparing them to Katsuragis' pattern, etc.

It seems that some features are the result of the extensive camouflaging when she was moored at the island, rather than initial painting of the deck. I'll try to illustrate this later.

But for now, one more question :
I noticed that several of the best-finished models of IJN carriers in late war camo show many details in grey: guns, directors, sometimes even some sections of decking.
Besides making for a more interesting model, there is good logic behind this, that possibly not everything was repainted when the green camo was applied, especially the more complex and delicate equipment. There was a discussion on the steel decks regarding this recently.

But with Amagi, I would think she was commissioned in the green camo, and therefore everything was in green. Maybe some equipment was delivered in grey and left that way after being installed, but certainly the steel decks must have been green?
I certainly don't see anything grey showing in the color footage of her...

So my question: would you agree with this, or do you think Amagi might have had some grey equipment or decks?

Many thanks,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:58 pm 
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My pleasure, Marijn.

I have the same issues as you in trying to interpret b & w photography for color and nuance. Was there any grey? It's anybody's guess, really. I'll bet I've come down on both sides of this question before.

It seems to me that late in the war, the Japanese are doing their best to disguise the ships by making them look like extension of the small islets that they are moored next to. Grey doesn't seem like the best color choice for blending in the camouflage. But, maybe they ran out of green paint. :scratch: Or, because it's after the war, maybe the camo paint is starting to fade and the grey is beginning to show through.

You could play this any which way. I don't think anyone could fault any choice without a photograph to back up a claim. Which is MOST unlikely.

When in doubt, flip a coin. ( I know, that is sooooooo helpful.)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:08 pm 
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Many thanks for your insights Dan! Very much appreciated!

I think I'll go with what I can see on the color footage available in this case, and I don't see any grey... But as you write, and since the color footage is limited indeed, that is just a choice. :)


Now, since you mentioned the subject of camouflage to make the carriers look like extensions of the island... :big_grin:

The report of the technical mission to Japan reports clearly how Amagi and Katsuragi were camouflaged with that goal in mind. The report describes in a fair amount of detail how this was done to Katsuragi, down to drawings of het camo at two different points in time.
I quote a small part: "roads ran up the to the ship and continued across the flight deck. At first these 'roads' were merely bare intervals between the branches and leaves which covered the flight deck, but later they were more elaborately made with yellow sand of the same color as the roads ashore."

I think no photo shows these "roads" more clearly than this aerial shot:

Image

Magnified, it provides a beautiful view of Katsuragi camouflaged with nets, fake structures, trees, and indeed "roads". This would make a wonderful diorama too… :)
The roads are clearly lighter than the rest of the flight deck. There is a more detailed view of her like this, but this shot shows the "roads" in a better contrasted way. Between shore and ship, the roads seem to be cloth hung on the camo nets.

Image

In this post-war shot of Katsuragi, I think I can still make out traces of these "roads", faintly present over the painted camo pattern. I guess the dust was ingrained in the surface enough for it to leave visible trace?

Image

Now Amagi! She also clearly shows "roads" on that aerial shot. Unfortunately, there is only a small part of her in the photo, but luckily it is the most important part (for me).

Image

On the footage of Amagai's flight deck after capsizing, a lighter shape shows up on the aft part of the flight deck. This nice new shot I recently found on the net shows it pretty clearly. I don't mean the very light vertical stripe, I mean the wide V-shape to the right of it, and maybe also the faint oblique line to the right of that and parallel with it.

Image

Image

It seems to coincide with (part of the) road pattern in the above aerial photo?

This is how it looks in the color video (sand tone indeed):

Image

So I'm guessing this is the remains of the fake road camouflage, in the form of dust ingrained in the surface of the flight deck.
Or maybe (part of) these roads on Amagi were actually painted on top of the original camo pattern, instead of or together with the use of sand?

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Marijn


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