The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:27 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 582 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 30  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:31 pm 
Can anyone direct me to a source showing damage to Yorktown post Coral Sea? I want to build the carrier immediately prior to Midway and whilst I can get detailed photos of the bomb hits, I can't find get a general view of the flight deck or hull showing the areas to be repaired.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 9662
Location: EG48
Yorktown was damaged by a bomb at Coral Sea. Most of the damage was internal but you can see photographs here at NHC as well as the damage report and some further photographs and damage plates at NavSea.

You would not see any remnants of this damage on Yorktown immediately prior to Midway as the deck was penetrated and the bomb exploded a few decks below it (pages 5 & 6 state the bomb penetrated the flight, gallery, main (hangar), second, and third decks before exploding; there was no shrapnel damage above the second deck.

From page 7 of the damage report: "Damage to the flight deck ... consisted of a hole about 12 inches in diameter and distortion of the deck longitudinals..." (these were the structures underneath the deck). The main deck was bulged upward about 1.5" above the bomb blast.

THere was some damage to the hull shell frm the near misses; the plates and photos in teh damage report should help you there.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:46 am
Posts: 2123
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Probably the most notable damage to Yorktown after Coral Sea would have been a small fuel leak. A near-miss bomb caved in some hull plates and she tailed small amounts of fuel all the way back to Pearl.

-Devin

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Seattle, Wa.
I'm looking for confirmation or correction of Yorktown's 20mm and .50 cal guns at Midway. Following Dick J's posts on the SN site dated 12-17-03 and 11-10-05, this is what I came up with. I hope that I read the posts correctly.

Attachment:
USS Yorktown CV5 001.jpg
USS Yorktown CV5 001.jpg [ 130.31 KiB | Viewed 9832 times ]

Attachment:
USS Yorktown CV5 002.jpg
USS Yorktown CV5 002.jpg [ 122.6 KiB | Viewed 9832 times ]

Attachment:
USS Yorktown CV5 003.jpg
USS Yorktown CV5 003.jpg [ 130.28 KiB | Viewed 9832 times ]




TIA

Gordon


Last edited by Gordon Bjorklund on Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:47 pm 
Looks good to me. A couple of additonal hints, though. Watch the positioning of the 1.1's forward of the island. The one on the clipping room roof (#2 mount) is usually depicted with the tub overhanging the front of the structure. Actually, the front of the tub was set back from the front of the structure. (Enterprise was built the same way, but when she got the 40MM, the position was moved forward. Hornet was built with the more forward position.)

Also, in Ballard's Midway book, illustrations show what appears to be a third 20MM pedestal on the fantail (on centerline). What I believe this to have been was the support bracket for the jettisonable 800 gal avgas tank added just prior to Midway. The tank itself was dumped when the IJN divebomber attack group was detected on radar.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Seattle, Wa.
Dick,

Thank you for your quick reply and thanks for the earlier posts on the SN site a couple years ago. I didn't understand the layout the first time I read your post but after drawing out the outline of the ship and reading your post it started to make sense. Over the years I saved all the posts on Yorktown class carriers I came across. They have come in handy. Now I have new info.

I will change the position of the 1.1" tub on top of the clipping room.

Now on to the location of the rafts.

Thanks again for your input.

Gordon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:59 am 
Hi Gordon,

As for the rafts, off the top of my head, I can list a few. There were some large rafts located below the island, just above the hangardeck level. They were attached to vertical posts running from the hangardeck to the overhang outboard of the island that had housed the boatcrane machinery. These rafts were doubled, but I would have to review my sources to get the exact number of sets. Four small rafts were located on the outboard side of the island itself, at the after end.

Good luck on your researches! :thumbs_up_1:


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:51 pm 
Yorktown was built with 24 .50cal mg's. 16 were in the flightdeck catwalks in groups of 4. One group was located to stbd, just forward of the island and the forward 1.1's, another stbd aft, behind the after 1.1's. The other two groups were to port, opposite the stbd groups. 4 more .50's were located on the island, 1 ea inboard and outboard of the tripod mast, and inboard and outboard between the back of the stack and the after MK-33 director. The last 4 were located in the foretop. When radar was added, the 4 foretop mounts were relocated to the 4 corners of the flightdeck. All 24 mounts had permanently installed cooling systems.

In Dec '41, 24 20MM were installed, and were intended to replace the .50's. However, in the confusion, Yorktown kept both. Only 8 of the .50's were actually displaced - the 8 in the port catwalks. The remaining 16 remained permanently installed, although the guns themselves could be removed and stored.

The 24 20MM were located as follows: 5 ea replaced the 4 ea in the port catwalks. 8 were outboard of the island, evenly spaced between the front of the island and the 4 rafts at the after end. 2 were located in the catwalk above the stbd hangar level boatcrane. 2 were added on the bow bandstand, and 2 on the fantail.

The 8 displaced .50's were positioned as follows: 1 each on either side of the bow 20MM bandstand, 2 on the island forward of the permanent inboard .50 abeam the tripod, 3 at hangar level, forward of the port boatcrane, and the last one immediately behind and one level below the port after 5" gallery. These temporary mounts had no cooling hardware, so corks were put into the connections for the cooling hoses. When the heat popped the corks, the cooling jackets were refilled using tea kettles, and the corks reinserted. The gunnery officer wasn't sure if the Navy would take the .50's back, so they were usually "stored" whenever Yorktown was in port. (Which is why the bow mounts don't show in the famous drydock photo prior to Midway.)

All of the .50's and the two fantail 20MM were protected only by splinter mats attached to the lifelines. (The 20MM did have the on-mount panels, like all the other 20MM.) The remaining 22 20MM had fixed splinterscreens in addition to the on-mount panels.

Gordon's drawings should help all this to make sense.

In addition, Yorktown's crew found that a short section of broomhandle could be mounted in the base for the aircraft mounted twin .30cal mg's. This could then be slipped into any of the lifeline posts almost anywhere on the ship. Pinning these locations down would be impossible, because they could be changed at will.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:33 pm 
I want to model my Yorktown as she was on the morning of June 4, 1942.

On page 88 in Pictorial Histories Pub. Co. book "A Glorious Page in Our History" The Battle of Midway, there is a picture of Yorktown on the morning (0730) of June 4th with a/c on her deck. The caption for the picture states that the a/c front to rear are F4F's (CAP?), SBD's then TBD's. There is also an a/c located on a starboard outrigger that looks like a SBD. The picture was taken from a long way off and is not very clear.

Here is what has me confused. The text on page 89 states that at 0840 the (12) TBD's launched first followed by the (17) SBD's then the (6) F4F's at 0905. The caption for the picture and the text don't match.


Here are my questions.

1. Is the plane on the outrigger a SBD?

2. Did Yorktown have four outriggers? (two on either side)

3. Is the caption for the picture correct in the placement of the a/c?
F4F's-SBD"s-TBD's

4. Is the text launch sequence correct? (Coral Sea experience)
TBD's-SBD's-F4F's

5. Could the caption and the text both be correct?
That would mean that the F4F's are the morning CAP, TBD's and the
SBD's were respotted and the strike escort F4F's were brought up to
the flight deck after the SDB's started to launch.

6. Would the morning CAP F4F's be sent up first before the strike a/c
launch?

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

Gordon


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Seattle, Wa.
USS Yorktown CV-5 @ Midway 4 June 1942. I want to model her as she was early in the morning, while preparing for her first strike.

I will use the 1/700 Tamiya Enterprise and Hornet kits.
WEM's Enterprise & Hornet PE set
Trumpeter's F4F's, SBD's and TBD's
Tom's MW PE 20mm guns
Gold Medal Models' Naval Figures
Tamiya Spray Primer
Testors MM Marine Acryl Paint
Misc sheet plastic and rod
the .50 cals from the WEM set
the 1.1" guns are from the Trumpeter Lexington CV-2 kit

The beginning: hangar deck installed, the deguasing cable added and the hull is now ready for priming. The flight deck is also ready for priming. The island modifcation is under way. WEM's PE and Trumpeters' a/c are on order and I will order the GMM Naval Figures next week.

I hope to finish her by June 4th.


Mini update 03-27-07

Hull primed, hangar deck and bottom of flight deck painted white. I have made some progress on the island, rafts and gun galleriies




Mini update 4-1-07 Lower hull painted Sea Blue, flight deck painted tan then covered with blue. Mk 33 directors made. Misc parts painted or are ready for paint. WEM PE and Trumpeter a/c are supposed to arrive tomorrow.




Mini update 4-11-07 Hull painted Sea Blue (lightened w/ Ocean Gray) and Ocean Gray (lightened w/Haze Gray. Island, small parts and catwalks are painted. All the a/c are painted and gloss coated w/future. Hangar deck and all horizontal decks need to be painted still.





Yes! the flight deck is really that warped. This is a job for super glue.

Gordon


Last edited by Gordon Bjorklund on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:57 pm, edited 9 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:53 am
Posts: 24
Location: Chengdu P.R.China
Gordon,

You are so fast!

Also show you my progress. :big_grin:

Image

Looking forward!

Jack

_________________
http://www.ModelFleetCN.com
Welcome to China Ship Model site.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:46 am
Posts: 2123
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Gordon,

From what I can discern and know from previous reading:

1. It sure looks like a TBD on that outrigger to me, but it's could be an SBD, too. At that distance it's a crap-shoot. If I were forced to guess, though, I'd say TBD just from the appearance.

2. Unsure of the number of outriggers.

3. From what I have read, that placement should be accurate for Yorktown at dawn, preparing to launch her first CAP of the day.

4. That launch sequence is correct. By that point of the war only Yorktown's groups had figured out how to properly launch a strike with those particular aircraft. She is the only ship that would launch in that sequence that day.

5. You're almost right. I think the F4F's would be CAP, the SBD's would be the scouts. Yorktown had the search duties that morning, so she launched SBD's for that purpose at dawn. Waiting for the scouts to return is the reason that Yorktown was left behind while Hornet and Enterprise went off to launch their strikes, and is why Yorktown bore the brunt of the entire ship phase of the battle on the American side.

6. Yes. F4F's and scouting SBD's launched at dawn. I assume the TBD's were spotted in case an immediate strike were needed. HOWEVER, I think that Yorktown recovered her scouting SBD's and rotated CAP before the actual strike was launched, so those TBD's would have been struck below at some point during the morning. When the strike launched it should have been initially a deck load of TBD's, maybe some CAP, they would have launched, and then they brought up the F4F's and SBD's for the strike in a separate deck load.

Find a copy of Lundstrom's "The First Team". That book has the spotting, what specific aircraft flew which mission, etc.

-Devin

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:17 pm
Posts: 860
Location: EN83
Anonymous wrote:
I want to model my Yorktown as she was on the morning of June 4, 1942.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Gordon


Gordon,

In one of my more incredible moments of moronitude, I parted with a superb book that I strongly recommend--if you do not already have it--that you get hold of. It has good, in-depth information and breakdown of the ship's airgroups and operations, and might also be of some help to you.

Off topic a bit, I am presently working with a 1:700 Trumpeter Hornet, trying to correct the worst of its egregious hull errors. I will soon be at a crossroads with it, deciding whether to complete it as CV8, or to begin converting it into a prewar Yorktown.

If I choose the CV8 route, I will be doing much the same kind of project as you are working to achieve, but of a "Doolittle" Hornet en route just before April 18, 1942. Like you, I'll want date-specific information on the a/c populating her flight deck, as well as their placement.

In that case, I will probably buy the european-made resin kit and fashion it into a prewar CV5--with its mahogany-stained flight deck, Y K T N markings and the famous island "Y", as well as her colorful airgroups. I will not buy another Trumpeter Hornet and go through all this :censored_2: trouble again so, either way, I'll have to pay for it--monetarily or with laborious tedium!

I just wanted you to know that I appreciate and support your efforts, and am very much looking forward to your finished project!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:42 pm 
I share your sentiments regarding the Trumpeter HORNET hull- my experience is with the 1/350 scale kit, but holy cat crap, what a job it was to correct! One of the smarter things I did was pick up the old Revell YORKTOWN class kit (approximately 1/480) which Mike Vorrasi has pointed out has an outstandingly accurate hull. I was going to use this as a 3-D reference and then discard it, but it is a thing of beauty, and when I came across a web article with pictures of the model Stephen Allen built from this kit (featured in Chesneau’s Shipcraft No.3 book as well) I said….Hmmmmm…. if he can do that, maybe so can I, and the Evergreen and Plastistruct started flying while the HORNET hull languished.
This tendency to get distracted has reared its head again, and both 1/350 and 1/480 ships are now on the back burner, but here are some in–progress photos of the 1/480 model's hull, island and Mk 33 directors. The model will represent YORKTOWN circa June 1942. When building the Trumpeter HORNET I replaced the flight deck and most of the hull. With the Revell kit, these are the only parts I used. As everything else is scratch or the GMM photo-etch set, I suppose that I will be able to say that between the two models I will have scratch-built a YORKTOWN class carrier!
Dick J. has been very helpful with his detailed information about AA placement at Midway, and he and Mike Vorrasi saved me from a couple of errors I tried to make.
As to the Trumpeter hull corrections, I will post photos and a description on the HORNET page on this site.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Answered questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Seattle, Wa.
Thank you guys for your replies.

First, I should aplogize for being lazy and not doing some searching on the web for answers. I found a copy of Capt Buckminster's action report for Yorktown on the 4th of June.

morning of June 4, 1942, Yorktown was a part of Task Force SEVENTEEN, Pacific Fleet, under the direct command of Rear Admiral Frank Jack FLETCHER, Commander Task Force SEVENTEEN. Information had been received on the morning of June 4 that enemy forces, including two carriers, had been located to the Northwestward of Midway.
-----------

At dawn, ten VSB of VB5 were launched to search the Northern semi-circle for a distance of 100 miles as a security search against surprise by enemy carriers not previously located by our forces. This search returned at about 0830 with negative results and was landed on board after launching a six-plane combat patrol of fighters. The deck was then spotted for take-off of the attack group.


From 1030 to 1050 took off an attack group composed of seventeen VSB and VB3, twelve VT from VT3, and six VF from VF3. This attack group was launched about an hour and fifteen minutes after Enterprise and Hornet launched their attack groups. Orders were to attack the two enemy carriers previously reported. It had originally been planned to launch all VSB but, as it was considered highly probably that there were two additional carriers in the vicinity which had not yet been located, seventeen VSB were held in reserve to search for and attack these carriers.

------------
. Attack Group.


(a) At about 1045 commenced launching the Attack Group composed of 17 VSB, 12 VTB and 6 VF. The torpedo planes were directed to proceed immediately towards the objective; and the VSBs ordered to circle overhead for 12 minutes and then proceed to overtake the VT before reaching the enemy. In order to conserve fuel for the VF, they were launched at 1105 with orders to rendezvous enroute. Due to the slow speed of the TBD's and the small fuel capacity of the F4F-4's, the above procedure was deemed expedient and worked out very well.

----------

Another site stated that after the dawn search group landed the "flight deck ballet" began with the spotting of the strike group.

Devin,
thanks for the info (it's starting to make sense) and the tip on the "The First team" book. I checked the local library on line and they have it on the shelf. It's right across the street from where I work. It doen't get ant easier than that. I'll wander over there after work tomorrow and check it out.

RNfanDan,
I almost bought that book "That Gallant Ship" years ago but at that time I didn't see the need. You just never know at times. Amazon show that book in stock and I will probably order it. Best of luck to you on your Hornet build. When I was working on mine, I came across three diferent pictures of the B-25's spotted on the deck. They are posted in the "Calling all Hornet fans. I wanted to do the one with the SBD's along side the B-25's. The only problem with that was the only way I knew to get 1/700 rudder stripes was to order another Trumperer Lexington kit..
Thank you for your support and encouragement.

TA

Gordon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:17 pm 
Hi Gordon,

I wanted to check some sources before I answered, and hope I got it right. Here goes:

1. If you have "That Gallant Ship" by Cressman, look at pg126. The photo is larger than the one you reference, and the plane on the outrigger looks like an SBD to me. Probably either a quick response search plane or relief for the ASW patrol overhead.

2. Yorktown was built with 10 outriggers, 4 stbd and 6 port. When the 20MM were added, the aftermost stbd and foremost port outriggers were removed, leaving 8 at Midway.

3. As of the time of the photo referenced above (0930 per the caption) the planes on deck appear to have been (front to back) F4F's (relief CAP), SBD's then TBD's.

4. Per John Lundstorm in "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral", the SBD's launched first (longest legs) and orbited overhead while the TBD's launched. They then headed out while the F4F's were brought up on deck and launched, performing a running rendevous with the strike aircraft. (F4F's had a higher max range cruise speed than the bombers, and this method put all aircraft types over target at the same time - Yorktown was the only US CV to do so that day.)

5. Your assumptions are close. Per Lundstrom, the F4F's were brought up as (or immediately after) the TBD's launched. Fully loaded, the TBD's needed most of the deck to launch anyway. However, Mark Horan is the real expert in this area. Perhaps he might provide the definitive answer to the launch order. (And probably with the bureau numbers of each aircraft.)

6. Normal CV ops of the time put the fighter CAP and ASW CAP over the carrier first. With the strike spotted, and no CAP airborne, the CV would be an easy target, while the spotted strike could interfere with launching the CAP later.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:46 am
Posts: 2123
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Dick J wrote:
4. Per John Lundstorm in "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral", the SBD's launched first (longest legs) and orbited overhead while the TBD's launched. They then headed out while the F4F's were brought up on deck and launched, performing a running rendevous with the strike aircraft. (F4F's had a higher max range cruise speed than the bombers, and this method put all aircraft types over target at the same time - Yorktown was the only US CV to do so that day.)


I'll have to check in "First Team" but I believe this is different info from the same author. I could swear in "First Team" he states that the TBD's launched first. It didn't have anything to do with which had the most endurance, it was because the TBD's were so slow that by launching first they got a head start and then all aircraft rendezvoused en-route.

-Devin

_________________
We like our history sanitized and theme-parked and self-congratulatory, not bloody and angry and unflattering. - Jonathan Yardley


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 9662
Location: EG48
Quote:
2. Did Yorktown have four outriggers? (two on either side)


I have a scan of 80-G-21644, which is close to the same view as 80-G-21666. Here's a cropped copy of the full-screen shot:

Image

In the photos I have, I can see three outriggers, so I'm fairly confident she had four to be symetrical.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Seattle, Wa.
Dick,
Thank you for your response to my questions. The more questions I ask the more I learn.

I don't have the book "That Gallant Ship" yet but I think I will order it from Amazon.

Yorktown had eight outriggers at Midway! I thought she might have four and that they were all forward. Your answer sent me on a quick quest on the web but no luck. Then I remembered you said she had ten when built, that sent me to Roger Chesneau book "Yorktown Class Carriers" and Stephen Allen's 1/480 Yorktown. Well lo and behold there are ten on his Yorktown. Once I knew what to look for they was easy to spot.

John Lundstrom's book "Black Shoe Carrier Admiral" was brought to my attention at our local IPMS meeting a couple of weeks ago. I"ll have to check to Library to see if they have it on the shelf.

I'm still not certain on the raft situation.

1. I can't tell by the dry dock picture whether there are four or five large double rafts on the side of the hull. I made up five sets.

2. The four small rafts on the island must not be mounted to high off the deck.

3. I see that there is a stack of rafts on the port side hangar deck just below the rear 20mm gallery.

4. I see that there are to sets of rafts (one set of three small rafts and the other is a large and small raft) at the stern on the port side at hangar deck level.

I also don't see the small forward crane outside of the island in any of the pictures i've looked at. Was it removed or have I missed it? There's not many if any closeups of the starboard side that I have seen.

Thanks again for your response.

Best regards

Gordon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Seattle, Wa.
Tracy,

Thank you for the picture. That outrigger is sure visible in that picture. The location of the .50 cal mg's is also clear. The picture shows that the stack of rafts on the hangar was used by the crew when they abandoned ship. They are not in the picture.

Thank you again for taking to time to help me..

Gordon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 582 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 30  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: InchHigh and 7 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group