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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 pm 
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One more correction to Hancock's final config. The Floating Drydock's Camouflage 2 book has an immediate post-war photo of Hanna in the late-war version of MS-12 with only two vertical surface colors - navy blue up to the hangar deck and ocean gray above.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:27 am 
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An Interesting photo of Essex in November 1943. Clearly shows yellow dashed lines. Photo taken by Paul Madden


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:04 pm 
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CV-17 Son wrote:
I'm a newbie to the forum and amazed by the knowledge that is represented on this site! Hopefully someone can lend me a hand....

I discovered this site while doing research to build a scale model of the USS Bunker Hill CV-17 on which my father served during WW2. He was wounded during the kamikaze attacks on May 11, '45, but thankfully not critically. Sadly Dad passed away in 2008 before I had a chance to fulfill my promise to build him an accurate model of the Bunker Hill as she was the day they were hit.

I recently picked up a Trumpeter 1/350 scale USS Franklin to serve as the basis for my build. A while back I stumbled across a thread on a military memorabilia site where the gentleman was offering up a set of plans for the Bunker Hill that were marked up denoting the damage she incurred when the two kamikaze's hit, but sadly the prints had already been sold. Fortunately he had posted images of plan sheets as well as closeups of some of the pages so I downloaded them for reference for my project. This lead to my web search for a set of Bunker Hill plans and recently I finally discovered a scanned set on the web which I immediately downloaded for reference.

As I searched for additional details on the Bunker Hill and her Essex class sisters, I came across ModelMonkey's site that showed he offered several different 1/350 scale islands for the Essex class carriers. I contacted Steve and he was very helpful in my quest for an accurate '45 Bunker Hill island. I sent him the sheet from the downloaded plants covering the island levels and he pointed out to me that set of plans DID NOT reflect the Bunker Hill as she was on May 11th. I checked the cover page of both sets and discovered the scanned set that I had downloaded had been revised two additional times since her January '45 refit.... once in September '45 repairing her damage and then again in September '46 while she was mothballed. Steve also suggested I join this site as there are very knowledgeable members who could assist me in my endeavour.

First, by chance did anyone on this site purchase the set of battle damaged plans or know who did? If so, please get in touch with me to discuss the Jan '45 changes. Steve said that it appears that the Bunker Hill had a very unique island following her refit that was different from her Essex class siblings. Any information or leads on the island particulars would be greatly appreciated!

In closing, I look forward to "meeting" all of you and your help honoring my Father and his service with this model.

My sincere thanks!!

Hello "CV-17 Son", I am new here, I have been interested in Naval Aviation since I was a kid, and as you might guess by my user name a HUGE fan of Corsairs. I've built several R/C versions, mostly of USS Bunker Hill based ones.
ANYWAY, the reason I am contacting you: I recently aquired a Trumpeter 1/350 USS Essex, which I plan to build as the 1945 version of USS Bunker Hill CV-17. I have purchased 6 x 6/ 36 Corsairs (as they WERE the most numerous aircraft on Bunker Hill at that time), and a few SB2C and TBMs. But my biggest question concerns the paint scheme on the Bunker Hill at that time: one reports states she had Measure 21 when the left Puget Sound in January, 1945. This would seem to be reverting to it's original paint, and NOT the measure 32 which is obviosly had post 1945. Measure 21 had solid colors, rather than the "dazzle" patters of measure 21. Looking at photograghs, it can be difficult to tell, because they are black and white and many times sunlit areas appear to be a solid color when in fact they are not. I would LOVE to build this in the simpler non-dazzle scheme, but only if I am conviced it is correct. SO, and insight?


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:28 pm 
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She was in MS 21 overall Navy Blue/Grey in 1945 - you can see from the photos on Navsource where her extra 40mm gun tubs tell you the photo's from 1945: https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/17.htm

Lots of US ships were repainted to MS 21 in 1945 as concealment against kamikaze threats was deemed more necessary than disrupting the optical tracking/targeting of IJN ships and submarines.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:48 am 
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Here's color footage of Shangri La in Measure 21 (overall Navy Grey) late war scheme. Bunker Hill was the same.

Hancock is also there in Measure 22.

https://youtu.be/IXzrirTdg6g

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:54 pm 
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CorsairJock wrote:
the 1945 version of USS Bunker Hill CV-17.


There are technically two "1945" versions as she went in for overhaul after the kamikaze hit and came out repaired and modernized in September 1945 for some magic carpet trips.

She was certainly in 5N Navy Blue measure 21 before the kamikaze hit - Puget Sound Navy Yard reported such. It is likely the later overhaul ended with her in the 5-N Navy Gray Measure 21.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:07 am 
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THANK YOU for the clarifications, I am looking for the early 1945 scheme, so my question has been answered. NOW, the aircraft: while there is no doubt all of the Corsairs on her had the overall glossy sea blue scheme, which had become the standard at that time, I have seen evidence that some or all of the TBM Avengers may have still had the 'tri-color' scheme during the same time, with the 'Arrow' matkings in the tail, and possibly some SB2C Helldivers too, any insight on that? I am talking late February until the kamakze attack, after the yellow nose rings had been removed/ painted over.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:34 am 
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Most of the Avengers were still in tricolor, as you can see in this photo. The vast majority of the VB-84 Helldivers were Glossy Sea Blue but it appears that at least two were in tricolor according to this photo on Bunker Hill's Navsource page.

The carriers didn't repaint aircraft when new directives came out other than insignia, but Air Group 84 was relatively homogeneous (some air groups wild have a mixture of TBM-1s and 3s for example). It's possible that the tri-color SB2Cs were -3s that were sent to the ship to replace combat losses but I haven't gone through her war diaries yet to try and track that. The weekly summaries just list SB2C-4Es. For what it's worth Bunker Hill also had a small collection of Hellcats; six F6F-5Ps for photo recon / damage assessment at the start of the cruise with another four F6F-5N night fighters added shortly thereafter.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:05 am 
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Quote:
She was certainly in 5N Navy Blue measure 21 before the kamikaze hit - Puget Sound Navy Yard reported such.


That's interesting. I had always believed she came out of her Jan 45 refit in Navy Grey based on the below color images.
It's hard to argue with the yard records but this looks like navy grey to me. In addition, I had read that Navy Blue paint was discontinued in 1944 due to lack of blue pigment stocks.

(the 40mm mount is actually May 11, 1945)


Attachments:
1945 04 bunker hill.jpg
1945 04 bunker hill.jpg [ 115.56 KiB | Viewed 2393 times ]
1945 04 bunker hillb.jpg
1945 04 bunker hillb.jpg [ 57.55 KiB | Viewed 2393 times ]
1945 04 bunker hillc.jpg
1945 04 bunker hillc.jpg [ 47.75 KiB | Viewed 2393 times ]

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ESSEX CLASS TIMELINE
USS Ticonderoga CV-14 Operational History
USS Shangri La, 1945 in Color
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 10:22 pm 
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OK, I'm going to start this by partially walking something back, but I'll do that at the bottom after I lay some groundwork.

Charybdis wrote:
Quote:
In addition, I had read that Navy Blue paint was discontinued in 1944 due to lack of blue pigment stocks.


The process started in 1944, but it wasn't fully completed before 1945. I don't have all of the documentation "yet" but have enough posted to make a good argument. To lay a foundation; during WWII the Navy had two paint manufacturing yards, Mare Island (MINY) and Norfolk (NNY) Navy Yards, and Philadelphia Navy Yard (PNY) was the yard that developed and finalized paint formulas and specifications. Starting in 1942 the Navy started contracting out to various paint manufacturers and by 1944 we have a blend of paint from both civilian and Navy sources.

The first document I have is dated June 1944 and directs PNY to develop formulas and specifications for new neutral paints; a reply a week later indicates that these were preliminary formulas only. In the middle of November PNY forwarded samples of a proposed #37 (replacement for 5-L Light Gray) and asked the Bureau of Ships (BuShips) for approval, which was granted about a week later. BuShips notified the USN paint manufacturing yards of the new formulas a few days later.

At the same time, they notified the Pacific Fleet of the upcoming change and directed the use of the old paints until exhausted (paragraph 5). A letter in January 1945 also shows that the civilian sector was still manufacturing to the old formulas and was expected to for at least a couple of months. We know that the new leaflet specifications for distribution were definitely not in circulation before the end of January.

Now, Puget Sound Navy Yard (PSNS) reported that Bunker Hill was painted "on or about" January 4th:

Attachment:
1945-2-10_CV17_Camouflage.jpg
1945-2-10_CV17_Camouflage.jpg [ 80.48 KiB | Viewed 2322 times ]


Note that she's reported in Measure 21, but I need to walk back the definite mention of 5-N Navy Blue. There's no mention of a 5N at all, so we can't even be confused about if they meant 5-N Navy Blue or 5-N Navy Gray. November documentation indicates the specifications were still being finalized, but we don't know where Puget Sound Navy Yard was getting its paint and how much stock of 5-N Navy blue it had. Decision based on evidence is yours.

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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 8:31 am 
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Back to my Trumpeter Bunker Hill CV-17 project, paint schemes and colors aside (THANKS BTW, for all the input), doing some research on my kit and I see these "wooden Deck" options offered by Ponto and ArtWox. The descriptions are very vague, some site show some pictures, but they add nothing to what exactly they are (wooden decks, I know). Are they designed to replace the 3 piece plastic decks that came with my kit (using USS Franklin kit, BTW)? OR are they meant to be attached on top or the existing plastic deck? Is one better than the other (Pontos or Artwox)? Lastly, some (but not all?) of them include paint masks which include "17", so would be ideal for me.


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 8:39 am 
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Both are designed to adhere over the top of the existing plastic. I'm not a fan so I won't comment on the rest of your questions as I haven't paid attention to them.

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 1:37 pm 
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CorsairJock wrote:
OR are they meant to be attached on top or the existing plastic deck? Is one better than the other (Pontos or Artwox)?

As Tracy said, they are meant to be attached to the kit deck. I used a Pontos deck from a 1/350 Revell Tirpitz. I thought the quality was good, but I also found it challenging to get it on and in place. I ended up going back and repeatedly rubbing down spots that lifted from the deck. Though, I do like how it looks when finished.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:31 pm 
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Dick J wrote:
One more correction to Hancock's final config. The Floating Drydock's Camouflage 2 book has an immediate post-war photo of Hanna in the late-war version of MS-12 with only two vertical surface colors - navy blue up to the hangar deck and ocean gray above.


I thought Lexington was the only carrier to use the revised late-war Ms.12. Shipcamouflage.com has Hancock in Ms.22 after her 1945 repair, though I suppose it's very difficult to tell from an old black and white photo whether the upper colour is Haze Grey or Ocean Grey.

On the subject of Hancock in her final wartime fit, were any of her 20mm Oerlikons replaced with the twin barrel versions?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:58 pm 
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[quote="Vlad"On the subject of Hancock in her final wartime fit, were any of her 20mm Oerlikons replaced with the twin barrel versions?[/quote]

The departure report for her April/May '45 repair and overhaul does not mention twin 20MMs at all. It does order the removal and replacement of 20mm mounts Mk 10 #12-52 with Mk 10s "with all applicable OrdAlts accomplished." A refresh, but no twins.

The departure report mentions nothing about paint above the waterline.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:41 pm 
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I am new to this forum and I have read all 124 threads w/interest. I have had the 1/350 Essex for about 15 years and I am glad I haven't started it yet! The knowledge you guys have is worth millions! Just from reading this post, I ordered the AOTS, and "Essex-Class Carriers" by Alan Raven. While I did not see much here on the Essex herself pre-1944, I did garnish a wealth of information to aide me in my build. (whenever I get to it) I have dabbled in model building since I was a kid and several years ago started building military aircraft. In 1992, I got a VIP tour of the John F. Kennedy when she was in Norfolk as part of a specialized team of fire instructors. I have had a hancoring to build a 1/350 scale of the Kennedy ever since! I have gotten a model of her to build and I also have two 1/400 Revell kits of the Enterprise that I want to do in the early 70's while she still had the beehive. I also have a 1/350 Nimitz that I would like to do for the Theodore Roosevelt. Sorry for rambling on but, I did want to thank you for taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge. It will go a long way in helping to build a more authentic representation of my Essex build. Thanks!

Dave C.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:05 pm 
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Hey Dave - welcome aboard! I'm glad you found some goodness in this monster of a thread - helping others is what drives a lot of us to stick around!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:45 am 
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Dave C. wrote:
I am new to this forum and I have read all 124 threads w/interest. I have had the 1/350 Essex for about 15 years and I am glad I haven't started it yet! The knowledge you guys have is worth millions! Just from reading this post, I ordered the AOTS, and "Essex-Class Carriers" by Alan Raven. While I did not see much here on the Essex herself pre-1944, I did garnish a wealth of information to aide me in my build. (whenever I get to it) I have dabbled in model building since I was a kid and several years ago started building military aircraft. In 1992, I got a VIP tour of the John F. Kennedy when she was in Norfolk as part of a specialized team of fire instructors. I have had a hancoring to build a 1/350 scale of the Kennedy ever since! I have gotten a model of her to build and I also have two 1/400 Revell kits of the Enterprise that I want to do in the early 70's while she still had the beehive. I also have a 1/350 Nimitz that I would like to do for the Theodore Roosevelt. Sorry for rambling on but, I did want to thank you for taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge. It will go a long way in helping to build a more authentic representation of my Essex build. Thanks!

Dave C.

Welcome, I completed the Essex a few months ago, pretty much stock/ no special aftermarket items, this was my first ship build in decades, and my first 1/350 EVER. I built it as a primer before I begin my next build: 1/350 USS Bunker Hill CV-17 (from the USS Franklin Kit) in which I will go all out. One thing I learned: I used the correct colors on my Essex build, but they appear too dark. How a ship appears outside and how a model of it appears inside can be drastically different, if no no other reason the lack of sunlight. That said, the Bunker Hill build will be painted in slightly lighter colors that the actual ones used on these ships. Just my 2 cents. And I'm certainly no pro at this, 70 yrs old and haven't built many plastic models since I was a teen.
And as for my air wing for the Essex: I have 18 SBDs, 18 TBF, and 12 F6F which need to be assembled and painted yet, to resemble photos taken in early 1943


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:18 am 
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Thanks, Tracy and CorsairJack for the welcome. And thanks for the insight about the paint shades - I will keep that in mind on my build. I am like you CorsairJack - I'm 66 and I have never built a large scale carrier nor used PE before. I've got an old 1/400 Revell model kit of the Enterprise (CV-65) that I've decided to do and use it for practice. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:48 am 
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CorsairJock brings up two topics I want to throw a bit more on. With regards to colors appearing too dark, you might look in to what is commonly known as scale effect or scale color. In real life, as an object moves towards the distance air and humidity will tend to mute the colors towards neutral, which is why colors may look off on a scale ship that appears more in the distance by size. This is generally more of an issue for the smaller scales but doesn't mean it's not relevant for 1/350.

I have a number of Essex class builds I'm working towards and am going to need upward of 400 aircraft (I plan on doing at least two full air groups and am not sure about the other three). If you wait until the ship is done before you start the air group, you have a LOOoooooooOOOoooOoOtttT of repetition. Far better to start the airgroup when you start the ship and "chunk it." Do a plane or two before you start that next ship sub-assembly. Once you've finished, do another plane or two. Breaking up the repetition helps make a large air group more possible and less of a drag, and who doesn't want a crap-ton of plans on the deck to show off the true power and magnificence of an aircraft carrier?

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