The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:24 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2629 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95 ... 132  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Hi Keith!
I hadn't notice you posting on this site before but since you are here, let me tell you how much inspiration I have gotten from your Yorktown. It and a couple of others are my main reference when I can't find pictures. It is beautifully crafted and if my Bennington looks half as good as your Yorktown when it is finished I will be happy!

_________________
Completed:
1/350 USS Missouri (BB-63) * 1/350 USS England (DE-635) * "Underway Personnel Transfer" Diorama

In Progress:
1/350 USS Bennington (CV-20)
1/144 USS Greenling (SSN-614) - ACAD/3D Printing
1/144 USS Batfish (SS-310) - ACAD/3D Printing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Mast Question...

Hey All,
I'm thinking ahead a bit but I've been giving a little more thought to the main mast. Since I am doing rigging and putting signal flags on the halyards, I know I need to beef up the mast, so I was thinking I would replace the main mast with some 0.062" music wire that I have.

My question is, do you think that I need to replace the two side support masts as well?

It seems to me that all the force is on the main mast and the music wire is pretty stout stuff, so I don't think it will flex fom the force of the rigging and flags, but I'm not certain. The reason I ask is that if I need to do the side ones too, it seems that it would greatly complicate the assembly due to the difficulty I think I would have in getting the angles, lengths and alignment spot on.

Any and all comments will be appreciated!

_________________
Completed:
1/350 USS Missouri (BB-63) * 1/350 USS England (DE-635) * "Underway Personnel Transfer" Diorama

In Progress:
1/350 USS Bennington (CV-20)
1/144 USS Greenling (SSN-614) - ACAD/3D Printing
1/144 USS Batfish (SS-310) - ACAD/3D Printing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 404
Location: NW Lower Michigan
Rdutnell wrote:
I want to add to my last post to stress that if you are building an Essex class carrier, stop what you are doing, grab a cup of coffee, and WATCH THIS FILM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WixCu061ZEM

It will be the best hour you will spend preapring for your build. Pretty much every question or topic that I have asked or brought up, and several things others brought up, is in the film, the flags, the bombs, the blue dyed hats, the color coded shirts (OK, not counting the guys only in their boxers), the movie theater, the swim break, the gun details, and many more.


I know there is a post on Modelwarships regarding the best war movie, but IMHO the very best film for WWII aircraft carrier operations is the movie titled, "Wing and a Prayer". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037466/ That's the one you want to watch!

Timm

_________________
Timm Smith
Learn something new about the ship or your job every day. Ignorance is not bliss aboard a warship in wartime. Ignorance could cost the life of yourself, a shipmate, or the loss of the ship.
- Personal Information Booklet CV- 38


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:28 pm
Posts: 2126
Location: Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
The difference is that one got an Academy Award for Documentary Film and one didn't.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:09 am 
Rdutnell wrote:
Mast Question...

Hey All,
I'm thinking ahead a bit but I've been giving a little more thought to the main mast. Since I am doing rigging and putting signal flags on the halyards, I know I need to beef up the mast, so I was thinking I would replace the main mast with some 0.062" music wire that I have.

My question is, do you think that I need to replace the two side support masts as well?

It seems to me that all the force is on the main mast and the music wire is pretty stout stuff, so I don't think it will flex fom the force of the rigging and flags, but I'm not certain. The reason I ask is that if I need to do the side ones too, it seems that it would greatly complicate the assembly due to the difficulty I think I would have in getting the angles, lengths and alignment spot on.

Any and all comments will be appreciated!


Seen allot of guys use brass rod.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Thanks Dennis,

I saw brass rod when I got the music wire. It was abot 3 times as expensive, which is why I ended up with the music wire. It should work, I just don't know if I need to do all 3 supports or just the main one. And although I didn't ask in the post, I also wonder about the yard arms. I'm sure that they will need beefing up some.

_________________
Completed:
1/350 USS Missouri (BB-63) * 1/350 USS England (DE-635) * "Underway Personnel Transfer" Diorama

In Progress:
1/350 USS Bennington (CV-20)
1/144 USS Greenling (SSN-614) - ACAD/3D Printing
1/144 USS Batfish (SS-310) - ACAD/3D Printing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:01 pm 
Yes, I understand you. Well, want to use something that looks in scale but does not droop and that all depends on the scale your building and the amount of detail you want. How about plastic rod from Evergreen? If you use to much metal then it might be a maintenance problem latter. I have never used it so don't know if it would rust on you.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Yeah, I don't know either. I don't think rust will be an issue, as it will be painted and covered with a dull coat. Then it will be enclosed in a glass case. But, I have NO experience with longevity of models, my oldest one still being less than a year old, and I have read about issues like railing and other PE popping off if CA was used to attach it, yellowing of various finishes over time, and deformation of masts from the attached rigging. Because I have no experience I have been asking a lot of questions on this forum (as you know if you follow it) to try to keep from doing something I will regret sooner or later. I don't always get a response, and some times I get conflicting advice, but most often I get the answer to my question.

As for the rigging issue, I rigged the only 2 ships I've ever built using the kit masts and nylon sewing thread (which I would not use again) with out any problems, at least not so far. But adding the flags, even though light in weight, is a considerable increase in weight percentage wise. And again, since I have only very limited experience it only seems wise to ask those who do.

Another question I haven't addressed yet is the solderabilty of the music wire. It seems like you should be able to solder it, but I haven't actually tried yet. Of course, this only matters if I need to do the side support masts in something stouter than plastic, and if it isn't solderable (I think I'm making up words all over the place), I could always use CA glue, but from what I have read, soldering is preferable and longer lasting.

Anyway, I appreciate the comments.

_________________
Completed:
1/350 USS Missouri (BB-63) * 1/350 USS England (DE-635) * "Underway Personnel Transfer" Diorama

In Progress:
1/350 USS Bennington (CV-20)
1/144 USS Greenling (SSN-614) - ACAD/3D Printing
1/144 USS Batfish (SS-310) - ACAD/3D Printing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:28 pm
Posts: 2126
Location: Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
I'll try this again,

I would go with metal for the mast.
Your yard arm is on your PE fret in three pieces, The center piece has all the antenna and "pulleys" for the signal halyards. You laminate this with the two slim pieces, one on each side of the center piece. This could be done with either CA or soldering paste. Instructions on how the solder method works is on the Alliance Model works site. Being laminated, you should have good vertical strength and a little less fore and aft.

Now for the rear supports, you could go either way. In metal this would be achieved by measuring the distance between the feet of the supports as they will sit on the model. Making the legs the same length as the plastic kit pieces. lay the metal legs on your soldering surface with the bottom ends held the measured distance apart, while bringing the upper ends together and soldering.

Radar platform above the yard arm could also be metal, sheet brass. Use the plastic piece as a template for size and shape and then cut it out.

The PE yardarm should then be soldered to the mast, but I don't know if a bi-metal joint would have a corrosive effect. I know copper and steel/iron do not play well together, but I don't know about music wire and brass.

Don't know whhat you'll use for rigging. Caenis thread is most true to scale for both signal halyards and the long wire radio antennas. I would attach the halyards to the yard arm before mounting (stepping) the mast on the model, leaving the lower ends loose. Then, after the mast structure and all PE under it are in place, attach the loose ends to the flag bags.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
You Rock Russ!

You hit every question I had, even ones I don't think I asked yet.
As for metal for the mast, everything I read suggests it if you are going to do rigging, so I think you are right. I also think to avoid the potential for bi-metal corrosion, I think I will switch to the brass. The problem with both the music wire and the brass rods is that they come in packs of four that are 3 feet long, so I have to pay for 12 feet of the %%^&%$ :Mad_5: when I don't even need 12". If I built 3 models a year for the rest of my life, there would still be some left over.

The method you describe is pretty much as Griffith described and what I was thinking, but my concerns are 1) getting accurate enough measurements of the spacing, because I would think that at this small scale, a small error would show up dramatically and 2) soldering the pieces together so it looks decent. I think if I could get an accurate measurement I could get a jig to hold them the right distance apart while I solder them, and I guess I will have plenty of rod to experiment with.

I was thinking the same as you described for the yardarms as far as the strength provided by laminating, which I think I will just do with CA.

I also like your idea of attaching the halyards to the yardarm first. A while back capt652 recommended that I layout the halyard horizontally and then attach the flags in the layout and spacing I want and this would be followed by doing as you say and attaching the completed halyards to the yardarm.

All of this answers the question I haven't asked yet, that being whether or not to completely build the mast with all of the radar before attaching it to the island. I've seen people do it this way and my main concern is not screwing it up when I am handling it to attach it. I have the same concern for the island, which following more advice from russ652, I have mounted to a piece of wood. I didn't however do as he suggested and screw it in, I tacked it with glue and will have to remove it, and then attach it, and the prospect of handling all of that delicate PE that I will have applied with much effort is pretty intimidating. But then, so is the alternative, so i think this is the way I will do it, or at least I'll get the brass and try it. Now I have 3 models to work on the ship, the island and the mast.

THANKS RUSS!!! :thumbs_up_1:

_________________
Completed:
1/350 USS Missouri (BB-63) * 1/350 USS England (DE-635) * "Underway Personnel Transfer" Diorama

In Progress:
1/350 USS Bennington (CV-20)
1/144 USS Greenling (SSN-614) - ACAD/3D Printing
1/144 USS Batfish (SS-310) - ACAD/3D Printing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Oops!

The last post I said, "... I have the same concern for the island, which following more advice from russ652, I have mounted to a piece of wood." It should have been capt652 instead of russ652. Sorry Timm, and thanks again for the advice.

On this same note, I went to the hobby store and swapped out the music wire for brass, and actually came out ahead. Since I only got one size, I got almost $2 back, and the brass comes in a clear plastic ¼” tube that may also serve as scratch build material at some point in the future.
So, this morning I decided to start making my mast, and immediately remembered why I was considering using the plastic for the aft/side support masts. Here are pictures of the island, aft/side masts, and radar platform, respectively.
Attachment:
DSC07600.JPG
DSC07600.JPG [ 144.69 KiB | Viewed 1725 times ]

Attachment:
DSC07609.JPG
DSC07609.JPG [ 146.81 KiB | Viewed 1725 times ]

Attachment:
DSC07613.JPG
DSC07613.JPG [ 139.47 KiB | Viewed 1725 times ]

The center mast is no problem, because the attachment points are simply round holes that the rod slips right in, with a little urging. The aft/side mounts however aren’t so simple. The attachment points on the radar platform are rectangular and oddly shaped, not quite rectangular, and not quite oval on the island. The masts have similar shapes cut at angles to the axis of the mast.

So, to get the rods to fit, even if I have the bases measured and set at the correct positions, it seems that I have two choices. I can either try to shape the ends of the rods correctly, or drill out the island and platform. Neither of these is particularly appealing. Shaping the mast ends is safer but seems like it would be more difficult. Of course, I have plenty of rod, so I could either use trial and error or build like 4 or 5 of them and pick the best one. Drilling would be easier, but there is a greater risk of screwing something up.

Any thoughts?

_________________
Completed:
1/350 USS Missouri (BB-63) * 1/350 USS England (DE-635) * "Underway Personnel Transfer" Diorama

In Progress:
1/350 USS Bennington (CV-20)
1/144 USS Greenling (SSN-614) - ACAD/3D Printing
1/144 USS Batfish (SS-310) - ACAD/3D Printing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 10448
Location: EG48
Brass is so much more rigid than plastic that I bet you'd be fine just with the center being brass and retaining the plastic angled ones. If something happens to apply enough force that you need the side ones to be stronger you're probably going to have major damage anyway.....

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:28 pm
Posts: 2126
Location: Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
Ok, given the configuration of the radar platform, I would go with the kit legs. However, I would still go with the brass mast, measuring carefully to make it long enough, mark where the mast disappears into the platform hole, and then solder your PE yardarm onto the mast at and below the mark. you might want to flatten the mast at the attachment point a little bit with a needle file, as it provides a greater contact area and if you're not soldering, more surface for CA.

After the yardarm is attached, you can attach the radar platform, then the halyards,and finally the legs.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:28 pm
Posts: 2126
Location: Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
Going back to the smoke cylinders on the aft galleries of Essex class ships, I have been doing a little research. Thank the lord for HNSA where I found information about "smoke" generators.

It seems that the smoke generators for DD and cruisers, the Mk1, four cylinder configuration and the Mark4, four cylinder configuration, had "smoke" tanks that were less than 70" in length and less than 16" in diameter. My nombers are not precise as the dimensions were given for the entire units, rather than the tanks. The reference publication does not list usage on any ships larger than cruisers.

However, the Ordnance Pamphlet does list the aircraft smoke generator tank. This is shown as being 67" in length/height and 19" in diameter. This would seem to be what we are seing in the photos.

Now, you may wonder why those tanks are stored/stowed on the gallery, rather than with the rest of the aircraft munitions. The answer lies in what those tanks contained. It develps that smoke generators Mk 1, 2, 4, and aircraft Mk 5, did not contain "smoke" but, rather liquid chemicals called FS.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/smoke/index.htm#pg15

Now, the tanks could leak, which was why all the ship and boat mounted generators had quick release levers so the units could be jettisoned. After use, the tanks were refilled from 55 Gal drums of the mixture. The smoke was corrosive enough that the generators had to be placed at least 24" from depth charges.

FS was a mixture of Sulphurtrioxide in Chlorosulfonic acid. The liquid was dispersed from the tanks by connection to the ship's high pressure air supply, in the case of the Mk 1 generator, or by a CO2 cylinder attached to the fluid tanks. When this chemical combination was sprayed from the holding tank, it reacted with water vapor in the outside air. This created the "smoke" and to quote, "In contact with the air it reacts with the moisture present to form a mixture of sulfuric and hydrochloric acid mist." In perhaps an understatement, it goes on, "Not only the smoke mixture, but also the smoke, is corrosive."


Last edited by Russ2146 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
IKES! Sulphuric and hydrochloric acid? You are right Russ, corrosive is an understatement. I'll bet that duty wasn't a favored one. Good stuff!

:smallsmile: Yeah! You guys gave me the news I was hoping to hear. I think I can pull off the brass center pole, but I was concerned that my modeling skills weren't good enough to do the whole thing in brass.

_________________
Completed:
1/350 USS Missouri (BB-63) * 1/350 USS England (DE-635) * "Underway Personnel Transfer" Diorama

In Progress:
1/350 USS Bennington (CV-20)
1/144 USS Greenling (SSN-614) - ACAD/3D Printing
1/144 USS Batfish (SS-310) - ACAD/3D Printing


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:28 pm
Posts: 2126
Location: Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
I ran across this photo while searching something for Carl M.

This is the LeTourneau crash crane. I found the picture on the website of LeTourneau University Museaum, which is in Texas.

The caption for the photo says: "All U.S. aircraft carriers were equipped with LeTourneau crash cranes."

Attachment:
b07.jpg
b07.jpg [ 114.47 KiB | Viewed 1604 times ]


With that lead, searching LeTourneau crash crane yielded:

Attachment:
767px-TBF_salvage2_on_USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)_1944.jpg
767px-TBF_salvage2_on_USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)_1944.jpg [ 64.74 KiB | Viewed 1586 times ]


OOOOOOPS, Shoulda kept it perpendicular to the load!!!

Attachment:
794px-TBF_salvage1_on_USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)_1944.jpg
794px-TBF_salvage1_on_USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)_1944.jpg [ 53.28 KiB | Viewed 1586 times ]


Attachment:
800px-Enlisted_men_relaxing_on_flight_deck_of_the_USS_Lexington_(CV-16)._-_NARA_-_520904.jpg
800px-Enlisted_men_relaxing_on_flight_deck_of_the_USS_Lexington_(CV-16)._-_NARA_-_520904.jpg [ 101.11 KiB | Viewed 1586 times ]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 10448
Location: EG48
Russ2146 wrote:
The caption for the photo says: "All U.S. aircraft carriers were equipped with LeTourneau crash cranes."


Not quite true, but certainly true for the Essex class.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: USS Hancock question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:31 pm
Posts: 8
I want to thank you guys for all the great information on this forum. I have six Dragon Essex class kits. I wish to build a late war USS Randolph and would like to know which other kit I should steal the deck from? I was going to order another Hancock but then read the Lexington might be better.

Also, while I am at it, wanted to say your labor of love re history and getting details just right is outstanding.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:30 pm
Posts: 1585
Location: Cape Canaveral Florida
Hi Hokkaido,

Since you are referencing Lexington, I assume that you are looking in 700th scale????? DML does a Randolph so that would be my first pick. It is a long Hull Essex so Lexington is not the best pick. If you already have Ticonderoga or Hancock you could use one of those kits. As I recall, DML modeled Tico's deck too long so it is actually a better Randolph than Tico. I am not sure how acurate the Randolph kit is. There may be some subtle details that DML missed but those are usually pretty easy to sort out. I did mine straight out of the box.


Good Luck!

MM


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:29 pm
Posts: 1949
The Randolph kit has the short deck. Unfortunately, it is only short on the front end, and so is not accurate for any long-hull Essex. Hancock and Ticonderoga were both built with the short deck, and it was short at both ends. Tico lengthened the forward end prior to deploying to the Pacific. The after end was lengthed during her '45 repair/refit. Hancock appears to have kept the short deck until her SCB-27 upgrade. Randolph was the next long-hull to commission, and so was the only other ship to potentially have the short deck. However, the earliest available photos (1 month after commissioning) show that she had the full-length deck by that time. The problem is that DML didn't understand how few ships had the short deck. Their Randolph, Antietam, and Boxer kits all have the short forward end. A Lexington deck mated to the Randolph hull should work. A Princeton deck should also work. You need a full length deck without the small notches for the 40MM adjacent to the port-side 5" mounts. The only other short-deck oddball was the Bennington, with her temporary post typhoon field repair. She was the only Essex with only the forward end shortened. Even still, the Randolph deck would have to be further shortened to match Bennington's unintended configuration.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2629 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95 ... 132  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 48 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group