The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Tue Mar 19, 2024 1:52 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 326 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:25 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
I think it's fair to say that plenty good clean photographs showing Ark Royal beam-on show it in a uniform shade. It's the two-tone suggestions that are contentious because the supposed demarcation follows Ark Royal's very sharp knuckle and most photos allegedly depicting a two-tone scheme show the ship from a quarter, bow or stern on view which do not show the hull directly amidships which is the only section which does not have a knuckle to caste severe shadows.

I am inclined personally to think Ark Royal was not in two-tone paint, but we are seeing distressed 507C almost gone and showing the original, more thoroughly applied Home Fleet Grey
Attachment:
Ark Royal.jpg
Ark Royal.jpg [ 47.08 KiB | Viewed 6222 times ]

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:53 pm
Posts: 446
I think it would have to be a two tone. There are too many photos floating around the web that make the difference extreme.

Image

Image

It was probably launched in a lighter grey and spent a bit of time in lighter grey in 1938.
Image

This appears a lighter grey to me:
Image
than this one below:

Image

If it was not two tone and simply a shadow then one would expect this at the bow where it is a uniform shade.

Image

Also quite possibly getting a paint job underway. This photo here shows a darker grey above the downward angle that would be cast in shadow. Also note midships where there is new paint and weathered light paint.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 10443
Location: EG48
I'm with Sutho - in my opinion there is no way that's not two tones.
But we all know how much opinions are worth.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:23 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
I think this might just remain disagreed. All of those photos support single tone. The dark tone in the aerial photo from port showing her listing is the underwater hull. The rest are showing shadow.

There are only two shades shown on all of those - Home Fleet Grey or Mediterranean Grey.

But yes, opinions - everyone has one.

My own Ark Royal will not be two-toned and I feel no uncertainty about that choice myself.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2849
Image

I have no opinion but it does seem the top coat has degraded a lot, where the coat lower to the waterline has not. Perhaps the damage was more extensive there and received a local correction. Could it be a single-colour system with severe wear showing the previous coat and then a lot of patchwork thrown in?

A great subject to apply the hairspray technique on...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:53 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
Attachment:
Ark%20Royal2.jpg
Ark%20Royal2.jpg [ 109.46 KiB | Viewed 6154 times ]


If a model is to be painted as sunk, then what is necessary is a 507A base coat with severely distressed 507C above the knuckles but worn away amidships. Most ship modellers don't seem to be too interested in painting effects, but armour modellers are good at it and aircraft modellers often have a go. Three methods to achieve distressed 507C like this are:
1) Hairspray chipping
2) Salt chipping
3) Applying the 507C with a sponge

The demarcation simply isn't there when the knuckle isn't there to create it. It's clearly absent amidships. Where my large green arrow is it's plain that it's a single (dark) tone from boot topping to flight deck level. To mask a line around the hull at knuckle level and paint it dark below and light above will not result in what's evident in the photographs.

What's lacking here is a photograph clearly showing Ark Royal in two-tone but with the paint in reasonable condition. Was it ever deliberately in two-tone paint?

Given the lack of 507C below the knuckles fore and aft, and the poor condition of what remains, it's clear that the paint was applied in a rush without the full washdown procedure and drying times. We need to ask which is more likely:

1) that the sea has been thorough in removing what 507C it could rub against and it has paint stripped most of the hull or
2) that there originally was a deliberate hard demarcation at lower hangar deck level yet not a trace of it remains amidships

There is evidence to support single tone schemes, and there is evidence of a severely battered Aker Royal sinking with overall 507A and some flaky 507C high up fore and aft. What we don't have is evidence of a finish with two paints in anything close to a reasonable condition.

There are two paints on the ship there, I agree, but I am arguing that there is no evidence of a two tone scheme. The sorry remnants of 507C clinging to the bow and stern above the Ark's knuckles prove nothing other than that they're all that's left of some 507C applied in a rush.

We need evidence of a demarcation of where that 507C ended and there isn't any - it's been feathered away by the sea wherever there wasn't the knuckle to protect it.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:58 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
EJFoeth wrote:
Image

I have no opinion but it does seem the top coat has degraded a lot, where the coat lower to the waterline has not. Perhaps the damage was more extensive there and received a local correction. Could it be a single-colour system with severe wear showing the previous coat and then a lot of patchwork thrown in?

A great subject to apply the hairspray technique on...


That's a cracking photo EJ.

I think this would be a very rewarding subject to paint as a model, but we need to paint what we see rather than painting what we assume it originally looked like.

At the very stern, the demarcation is at lower hangar deck. Following the lower hangar deck along all those cut-outs we soon find there is no demarcation at all. It almost looks like there *might* have been a demarcation one deck up part of the way, but that would imply a dogleg in the demarcation line which is unlikely to have been deliberate.

We can see both 507C and 507A present, but as per my last post, this doesn't prove what it looked like when the newest 507C went on - it only proves what little is left of it.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:53 pm
Posts: 446
I pondered for hours what to paint mine and at the time went entirely 507B with what information was out there. Looking at the history of the ship being based at Scapa Flow and also in Gibraltar there two locations it would have been possibly painted differently. The big question that arises now is when and where was the ship painted and for how long. Up until June 1940 the ship was based at Scapa Flow and then in June 1940 joined Force H in Gibraltar. In February 1941 it went back to the Atlantic to hunt Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, by May of 1941 it was involved in Bismarck action and then by November of that year it was sunk.

The questions that come up now is what colour was it when it was based in the Mediterranean in 1941 and did it repaint for Scharnhost and Gneisenau action in the Atlantic?

If we are seeing both 507A and 507C that is severely weathered at the time of sinking then what colour was it really painted in and what is the fresh paint that appears recently applied close to the waterline. It appears a work in progress and hastily put to sea before the paint job was finished. Possibly entirely in 507C in the Mediterranean and then was for some reason prior to sinking receiving a fresh coat of 507A from the waterline upwards that was not finished at the time of the sinking.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:42 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
Being half-done makes the most sense here. Much like the Arizona debate though - how far through was it? Ideally someone has some photographs squirreled away showing her just as she left port from that last lick of paint - whether it was new 507A near the waterline or whatever :)

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2849
1940 footage, skip to 1:07


Also 1940, paint already coming off. Not so much below the knuckle!

Image FLEET OPERATION IN THE MEDITERRANEAN. NOVEMBER 1940, ON BOARD THE DESTROYER HMS KELVIN.. © IWM (A 2375) IWM Non Commercial License

Light tone coming through at lower levels too:

Image THE SINKING OF HMS ARK ROYAL. 13 NOVEMBER 1941, OFF GIBRALTAR. THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER WAS TORPEDOED BY THE GERMAN U-BOAT U-81 AND SEVERELY DAMAGED, SHE SUNK THE FOLLOWING DAY.. © IWM (A 6315) IWM Non Commercial License

Image THE SINKING OF HMS ARK ROYAL. 13 NOVEMBER 1941, ON BOARD AN ESCORTING WARSHIP, OFF GIBRALTAR. THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER WAS TORPEDOED BY THE GERMAN U-BOAT U-81 AND SEVERELY DAMAGED, SHE SUNK THE FOLLOWING DAY. THE DESTROYER HMS LEGION TOOK THE SHIP'S COMPANY OFF THE SINKING CARRIER.. © IWM (A 6337) IWM Non Commercial License

If this happened on my model I would call that a disaster during painting... top layer not setting as it should.... blame Humbrol, thinner, air brush setting, cat sitting on the compressor...

Anyway, in my opinion paint usually comes off gradually and that appears to be the case? I don't know much about what primers where used in these days, perhaps a more strict paint scheme was used near the waterline?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:53 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
We've got the painting instructions somewhere. I'm sitting in a hot tub so can't access them right now haha.

The instructions for painting on bare metal though include a strip back, clean, a couple of coats of red lead oxide then the top coat (maybe two? I can't quite remember) followed by 2 days to dry before sailing.

For applying camouflage paints later they were a bit less rigourous - something like a wash down with fresh water to remove salt, then the top coat and two days to dry.

The actual 507A and C are oil paints as we know, but over the past few days Lindsay has been sharing information he has found about the bought-in paints which were oil bound water paints, or, very primitive emulsions. They were not very good - as is evident with water based paints even in modelling they didn't adhere to anything but worse, they adhered to themselves but shrank badly when drying. Applying additional coats tended to soften the previous coat, then pull it off the substrate as it dried and shrunk.

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:50 am
Posts: 69
How about this one, from a pilot's album I own?

Image

Seems to show two-tone midships to me.

And from the national markings on the Swordfish, taken before October 1940 for sure


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm
Posts: 2849
That would change matters indeed!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:53 pm
Posts: 446
I hope this works:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205185500

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205140450

IWM allows you to zoom in. It had to be in the middle of a paint job. Looks like a darker shade of grey was being painted on and the island was also a darker grey. You can clearly see lines and patches where the paint is being applied in various sections.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:50 am
Posts: 69
Notice the difference in Ark Royal between the photo I posted and the first IWM photo. The latter shows the port midship pom poms in place (the one I posted does not) and in the IWM photo the rear of the island has a solid vertical panel at deck level, whereas in the photo I posted it is still open (I believe altered at Liverpool in October 1940). So on the basis of these photos, it would seem that Ark Royal carried a two tone hull scheme during two periods: in November 1941 and also sometime between June and October 1940.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:25 am
Posts: 2256
Location: Los Angeles and Houston
Sutho wrote:
I hope this works:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205185500

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205140450

IWM allows you to zoom in. It had to be in the middle of a paint job. Looks like a darker shade of grey was being painted on and the island was also a darker grey. You can clearly see lines and patches where the paint is being applied in various sections.



What is that white blob to the right of the Destroyer in the second photo?

It looks like an explosion just to the aft of the Destroyer.

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:53 pm
Posts: 446
MatthewB wrote:
Sutho wrote:
I hope this works:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205185500

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205140450

IWM allows you to zoom in. It had to be in the middle of a paint job. Looks like a darker shade of grey was being painted on and the island was also a darker grey. You can clearly see lines and patches where the paint is being applied in various sections.



What is that white blob to the right of the Destroyer in the second photo?

It looks like an explosion just to the aft of the Destroyer.

MB


Probably an aircraft dropping a depth charge hunting for the U-Boat that torpedoed the Ark Royal.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:27 am
Posts: 822
Location: Kingston, Jamaica
Hi folks,

Not sure if this has been noticed (if it has, my apologies) but the island in the "two colour" photos is the same darker colour as the lower hull. If the appearance was shadow-generated this would not be so.

Sutho wrote:
Looking at the history of the ship being based at Scapa Flow and also in Gibraltar there two locations it would have been possibly painted differently. The big question that arises now is when and where was the ship painted and for how long.


The ship's chronology states she was at Gibraltar undergoing "self maintenance" during the week or so prior to leaving on her last mission. I suspect the Ark was indeed having a paint job done during that week. It may not have been completed before she sailed.

She was at sea for 3 days before being torpedoed, mainly steaming at a very modest speed because of some heavy weather, so maybe that explains the lack of wear on the lower hull?? :scratch:

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... 0Royal.htm

Paul

_________________
Hard a starboard.......Shoot!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:54 am 
Offline
SovereignHobbies
SovereignHobbies

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 1175
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
iangazeley wrote:
How about this one, from a pilot's album I own?

Image

Seems to show two-tone midships to me.

And from the national markings on the Swordfish, taken before October 1940 for sure


Indeed that changes much! Thank you for posting! :thumbs_up_1:

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:02 pm
Posts: 143
Thank you Ian for the wonderful photo.

In both that pic and the first IWM linked pic, I can see the darker colour being painted above the forward knuckle. That rules out shading.

So what we seem to have is an original lighter grey (507C?) being painted over with a darker grey (507A?) which is continually weathering off to reveal the lighter colour, and the ship's crew repainting nearer the waterline and island as they get the chance in the darker colour.

Can I confirm the darker grey on the lower hull is 507A? Any chance it could be 507B?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 326 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: WilliamBoict and 24 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group