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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:12 am 
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Pattern 52A Ochre was described as "Ochre Yellow English" in the 1931/32 Authorised List of Naval Stores (The Rate Book).

Please note however that the formula specified for Bronze-Grey in the 1937 Rate Book listing (see below) subsequent to the 1934 AFO I posted previously is modified to Pattern 52P "Ochre Yellow". Looking at the mixes specified for other paints then, it looks as if 52P replaced 52A across the board.

Attachment:
AP 631 Bronze-Grey.jpg
AP 631 Bronze-Grey.jpg [ 146.85 KiB | Viewed 1954 times ]


Either way I think we can safely assume that it was a yellow ochre and yellow ochre is I think a standard pigment still available today from artists stores. What you get following the mix would I guess be a dirty sea green sort of colour and would perhaps explain the green on older models Sutho refers to.

Early in WW2 (AFO 2859 of 28/9/39) the RN authorised a commercial non-slip deck paint in lieu of AP631. This was available in dark grey, light grey, Home Fleet Grey, bronze-grey and black.

I think it is fair to assume that carriers carried on using bronze-grey otherwise why would the Admiralty have made it available in the new non-slip deck paint?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:15 am 
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That's perfect - thanks Dick. I am off to order all the ingredients. I shall report back when I have made some Admiralty Bronze Grey!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:51 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
That's perfect - thanks Dick. I am off to order all the ingredients. I shall report back when I have made some Admiralty Bronze Grey!


When you get an idea of what it looks like can you please post photos here.

Unfortunately I have no idea what those mixes are and I have absolutely no idea about the imperial measuring system so it is like a foreign language to me reading that description.

As far as painting the ship goes I would be confident to assume that the decks that are not the flight deck would be in the standard RN colours and quite possibly AP507A the Dark Admiralty Grey.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:59 am 
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The zinc white pigment is on backorder so there will be a short delay in making up this AP631, but as soon as it arrives (10-14 days apparently) we'll get on it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Location: Sydney, AU
Hi Guys,
Just a quick update, I have had the Merit 1/350 HMS Ark Royal on reserve since it was announced around January.
Am in NO hurry for it, & sure it will come out in a few weeks or so, Just that most other Merit releases are already out or on back order?
If there are issues with it I am sure it will get sorted, hopefully the various etch suppliers won't be far behind.

Rgds

Peter H
Sydney, AU


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:12 am 
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I hope the PE suppliers are quick to get a set out for this 1/350 scale kit.

Just one other issue I discovered with the kit. The model only appears to have the yagi style antenna director for the AA guns. Going off photos of the ship these directors were never on the ship at all. Can anyone correct me or comment on this one.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:15 am 
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dick wrote:
Pattern 52A Ochre was described as "Ochre Yellow English" in the 1931/32 Authorised List of Naval Stores (The Rate Book).

Please note however that the formula specified for Bronze-Grey in the 1937 Rate Book listing (see below) subsequent to the 1934 AFO I posted previously is modified to Pattern 52P "Ochre Yellow". Looking at the mixes specified for other paints then, it looks as if 52P replaced 52A across the board.

Attachment:
AP 631 Bronze-Grey.jpg


Either way I think we can safely assume that it was a yellow ochre and yellow ochre is I think a standard pigment still available today from artists stores. What you get following the mix would I guess be a dirty sea green sort of colour and would perhaps explain the green on older models Sutho refers to.

Early in WW2 (AFO 2859 of 28/9/39) the RN authorised a commercial non-slip deck paint in lieu of AP631. This was available in dark grey, light grey, Home Fleet Grey, bronze-grey and black.

I think it is fair to assume that carriers carried on using bronze-grey otherwise why would the Admiralty have made it available in the new non-slip deck paint?


How could I look up these forumlas on a British Standard paint chart and what chart like RAL, BS2660, BS4800 or BS5252?

I am keen to see how this colour looks


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:30 am 
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Paints used by the British Services in WW2 were not British Standard colours, although some of them can be identified in BS381C 1931. I believe that 507C was Light Battleship Grey, and 507A was Dark Battleship Grey. The names, and I presume the shades, have been retained in BS2660. However, Bronze Grey was not one of these.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:10 pm 
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Graham Boak wrote:
Paints used by the British Services in WW2 were not British Standard colours, although some of them can be identified in BS381C 1931. I believe that 507C was Light Battleship Grey, and 507A was Dark Battleship Grey. The names, and I presume the shades, have been retained in BS2660. However, Bronze Grey was not one of these.


Thanks. It is only the bronze grey I am interested in deciphering from the above ingredients in that photo Dick posted. I already have a decent supply of colour coats but as we have established the Bronze Grey the RN used has never been produced by colour coats. The new owners are working on it now but as I am in Australia at the present stage I have no chance of getting any more colour coats.

Paints like Dryers terebine, oil linseed boiled and white spirit to mix together to get the colour are a complete mystery to me.

It will be easy for me to go to a hobby store and get some black paint and some ochre yellow paint and mix it together and come up with a green looking colour but I am hoping to get as close as possible for this model.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:41 pm 
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We're hoping to send a load of paint to Australia pretty soon :)

I'll post up some images once I've made this AP631 stuff. The zinc white pigment was out of stock so it'll probably be after the Scottish Nationals (in the original Perth ;) ) before it gets made up. The driers and linseed oil are here already.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:48 pm 
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Haijun watcher wrote:
Would someone who has received the Aoshima 1/700 Ark Royal please comment on the accuracy of the this new model's dimensions?

We all know what happened their recent 1/700 Wasp which turned out to be grossly underscale.


Ahem, anyone?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:44 am 
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Location: Brisbane. Australia
Sutho wrote:
Graham Boak wrote:
Paints used by the British Services in WW2 were not British Standard colours, although some of them can be identified in BS381C 1931. I believe that 507C was Light Battleship Grey, and 507A was Dark Battleship Grey. The names, and I presume the shades, have been retained in BS2660. However, Bronze Grey was not one of these.


Thanks. It is only the bronze grey I am interested in deciphering from the above ingredients in that photo Dick posted. I already have a decent supply of colour coats but as we have established the Bronze Grey the RN used has never been produced by colour coats. The new owners are working on it now but as I am in Australia at the present stage I have no chance of getting any more colour coats.

Paints like Dryers terebine, oil linseed boiled and white spirit to mix together to get the colour are a complete mystery to me.

It will be easy for me to go to a hobby store and get some black paint and some ochre yellow paint and mix it together and come up with a green looking colour but I am hoping to get as close as possible for this model.


Hello Sutho,

This is HMS Formidable Nov 1942 from the IWM WW2 colour transparencies collection. Being no carrier expert, I have no idea if the deck is 'bronze grey', but if it is, and the colour in the image is in the ball park, just load the image into http://scalemodeldb.com/paint and test a few areas of the deck to get some paint options (noting that the website's database is limited in paint ranges and has not been updated for a while (e.g. no ColourCoats, no Tamiya TS sprays, and the Tamiya XF series only goes up to 71).

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188318

Regards,
Lindsay


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:10 am 
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Location: Australia
dick wrote:
Pattern 52A Ochre was described as "Ochre Yellow English" in the 1931/32 Authorised List of Naval Stores (The Rate Book).

Please note however that the formula specified for Bronze-Grey in the 1937 Rate Book listing (see below) subsequent to the 1934 AFO I posted previously is modified to Pattern 52P "Ochre Yellow". Looking at the mixes specified for other paints then, it looks as if 52P replaced 52A across the board.

Attachment:
The attachment AP 631 Bronze-Grey.jpg is no longer available


Either way I think we can safely assume that it was a yellow ochre and yellow ochre is I think a standard pigment still available today from artists stores. What you get following the mix would I guess be a dirty sea green sort of colour and would perhaps explain the green on older models Sutho refers to.

Early in WW2 (AFO 2859 of 28/9/39) the RN authorised a commercial non-slip deck paint in lieu of AP631. This was available in dark grey, light grey, Home Fleet Grey, bronze-grey and black.

I think it is fair to assume that carriers carried on using bronze-grey otherwise why would the Admiralty have made it available in the new non-slip deck paint?


Dick,

a dirty sea green sort of colour
> could that also be described as Olive Green? The RAN had this listed as an anti slip paint up until 1955. RFAs and RMAS vessels also used this as deck paint until recently. The RFA deck paint was BS381C 220 Olive Green which has existed from 1930 as well as a colour called Middle Bronze Green (22 now 222) which looks to be a greyish green.


Attachments:
175  Commonwealth_Naval_Orders_1955_Jan-Jun_1.jpg
175 Commonwealth_Naval_Orders_1955_Jan-Jun_1.jpg [ 100.76 KiB | Viewed 1538 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:20 am 
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I think those greens are more likely to be the stuff found on destroyers?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:20 am 
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508medway wrote:
dick wrote:
Pattern 52A Ochre was described as "Ochre Yellow English" in the 1931/32 Authorised List of Naval Stores (The Rate Book).

Please note however that the formula specified for Bronze-Grey in the 1937 Rate Book listing (see below) subsequent to the 1934 AFO I posted previously is modified to Pattern 52P "Ochre Yellow". Looking at the mixes specified for other paints then, it looks as if 52P replaced 52A across the board.

Attachment:
AP 631 Bronze-Grey.jpg


Either way I think we can safely assume that it was a yellow ochre and yellow ochre is I think a standard pigment still available today from artists stores. What you get following the mix would I guess be a dirty sea green sort of colour and would perhaps explain the green on older models Sutho refers to.

Early in WW2 (AFO 2859 of 28/9/39) the RN authorised a commercial non-slip deck paint in lieu of AP631. This was available in dark grey, light grey, Home Fleet Grey, bronze-grey and black.

I think it is fair to assume that carriers carried on using bronze-grey otherwise why would the Admiralty have made it available in the new non-slip deck paint?


Dick,

a dirty sea green sort of colour
> could that also be described as Olive Green? The RAN had this listed as an anti slip paint up until 1955. RFAs and RMAS vessels also used this as deck paint until recently. The RFA deck paint was BS381C 220 Olive Green which has existed from 1930 as well as a colour called Middle Bronze Green (22 now 222) which looks to be a greyish green.



According to the Raven books of warship perspectives he describes aircraft carrier flight decks as a shade of dark green (exact shade unknown). He made this reference to HMS Formidable in volume 3. Mixing ochre yellow and black with whites will give a green look as Dick describes.

The mixing I did of hobby paints gives a darker MS3 type of look.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:04 am 
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The bronze greens were standard British Army colours, particularly the Dark Bronze Green which was the standard colour for many years post-WW2, and are not particularly grey-ish. Except that, like many military colours, they are not particularly intense of hue.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:00 pm 
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Colours aren't restricted to only one part of the armed forces. The RAF have used Dark Sea Grey, Extra Dark Sea Grey and RAF Blue Grey. The RN have used the Sea Greys as deck paint and Wasp helicopters were painted RAF blue grey.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:52 am 
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Please don't be too critical but here is the mix I did for the flight deck based on the formula Dick posted above. I have a light 1st coat painted on the ship with Colourcoat paints. The flight deck is the only mixing I had to do. The high quantity of ochre yellow gives it the green appearance.


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IMG_0104.jpg
IMG_0104.jpg [ 78.02 KiB | Viewed 1391 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:59 am 
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Looks good to me! Googling the models of the Ark there is a wide range of olive greens to choose from!
Thanks for your efforts.
John


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:57 am 
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508medway wrote:
Colours aren't restricted to only one part of the armed forces. The RAF have used Dark Sea Grey, Extra Dark Sea Grey and RAF Blue Grey. The RN have used the Sea Greys as deck paint and Wasp helicopters were painted RAF blue grey.


Tanks, ships and aircraft were and are all painted in their own range of paints, tailored by the manufacturers to suit the different materials and environments of land vehicles, ships and aircraft. In WW2 and before all three services had their own distinct range of colours, some of which were to be found in pre-war British Standards, but not many. Colour names were not used in all cases, although they were for all official aircraft paints. The FAA, with the Army's gliders and aircraft, used the same paints as the RAF, but these were not the same as used by the Royal Navy for its ships, or indeed for its vehicles. The system allowed for the same name (for example Dark Green) to be used for different colours, or the same colour to have different names. Although I can't think of a good example of the latter, the standard Army Brown wasn't a long way from RAF Dark Earth.

I'm not aware of the use of Sea Greys, presumably Dark Sea Grey, by the RN as deck paint: presumably this was post WW2? Then the individual service colour systems had been brought into British Standards, with many examples removed. It is pretty certain that from then on the same name meant the same colour - but the paint used on decks would be very different from that used on aircraft.


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