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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:08 am 
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Graham Boak wrote:
508medway wrote:
Colours aren't restricted to only one part of the armed forces. The RAF have used Dark Sea Grey, Extra Dark Sea Grey and RAF Blue Grey. The RN have used the Sea Greys as deck paint and Wasp helicopters were painted RAF blue grey.


Tanks, ships and aircraft were and are all painted in their own range of paints, tailored by the manufacturers to suit the different materials and environments of land vehicles, ships and aircraft. In WW2 and before all three services had their own distinct range of colours, some of which were to be found in pre-war British Standards, but not many. Colour names were not used in all cases, although they were for all official aircraft paints. The FAA, with the Army's gliders and aircraft, used the same paints as the RAF, but these were not the same as used by the Royal Navy for its ships, or indeed for its vehicles. The system allowed for the same name (for example Dark Green) to be used for different colours, or the same colour to have different names. Although I can't think of a good example of the latter, the standard Army Brown wasn't a long way from RAF Dark Earth.

I'm not aware of the use of Sea Greys, presumably Dark Sea Grey, by the RN as deck paint: presumably this was post WW2? Then the individual service colour systems had been brought into British Standards, with many examples removed. It is pretty certain that from then on the same name meant the same colour - but the paint used on decks would be very different from that used on aircraft.



The paint used for non skid decks would be different but that doesn't mean the colour could not be used. The bronze greens for example have all been in 381 from the beginning.

Re the various service colours.
The following were introduced into BS381C in the year noted with the number noted and notation (Aircraft Series), together with the comment the colour corresponds to the indicated colour in the HMG Aircraft Series. The number before the BS381C colour is the reference number given as the relevant Aircraft Series.

1948
203 693 Aircraft Grey
305 108 Aircraft Blue
306 283 Aircraft Grey Green

1964
4 637 Medium Sea Grey
5 638 Dark Sea Grey
3 639 Light Slate Grey
6 640 Extra Dark Sea Grey
7 641 Dark Green
8 642 Night Black
9A 210 Sky
13 450 Dark Earth
14 636 PRU Blue


Interestingly, two colours which have been in the BS381 colour charts from 1930 are also shown as Aircraft Series.
204 RAF Blue Grey 33/633
304 Office Red 38/538

There was also the camouflage standard BS987C and some of these colours became BS381 colours.
1A 436 Dark Camouflage Brown (1964)
2 499 Service Brown (1948)
10 435 Camouflage Red (1964)
15 298 Olive Drab (1948)
16 437 Very Dark Drab (1964)

Some of the colours we have been mentioning have also been in BS381 from 1930.

20 Olive Green
22 Light Bronze Green
23 Middle Bronze green
24 Deep Bronze Green

632 Dark Admiralty Grey has been a deck colour for years in the RN and RAN who still use the Australian Standard equivalent Pewter. The RAN first listed 632 in 1955 for all vessels replacing the following Admiralty Patterns:
4157 Olive Green
4158 Dark Battleship Grey
4159 Dark Blue Grey

We know 632 used to be 32 Dark Battleship Grey. Is it a coincidence that there is a BS381 colour 220 called Olive Green and 695 called Dark Blue Grey?

Dick has had success finding Stores Records/Rate Books, I wonder if these numbers have cropped up in any of them before or during WW2. I know that 4164 was yellow paint for flight deck markings and 4165 was white paint for the same use.

FYI, The RN used Dark Sea Grey as an alternative for Dark Admiralty Grey. Extra Dark Sea Grey has been the RN deck colour since about 1992. They also use (used?) Medium Sea Grey on Lynx helicopters.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:41 am 
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Thanks for a fascinating and informative post. However, the majority of it applies post-WW2, not the pre-war ship under discussion. That the British Army used colours called bronze-greens pre-WW2 (and postwar), and that these were found in BS381C, is true. However, this does not imply that a colour in use by the RN prewar, termed (perhaps loosely) as bronze-green, must therefore be any one of these colours or necessarily bear other than a vague relationship to them. Presumably it bears some relation or the term would not have been used.

Perhaps I can add to this post some help for other interested parties. Re BS987C: judging from the initial number and the linked name these would appear to be the Army's wartime SCC colours. For more information on these see Mike Starmer's work for the MAFVA in http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm. During WW2 these colours were applied to land vehicles operated by the RN and the RAF.

Of the Aircraft colours, Office Red should be Post Office Red (now called Cherry Red). For interesting discussions on the wartime and immediately post-war aircraft colours see Paul Lucas's series of Camouflage and Markings monographs from Guideline Publications. For the wartime Ministry of Aviation Production's colour charts see British Aviation Colours of WW2, from Arms & Armour press, but this does not cover any link between the prewar, wartime and postwar colours.

The post war colours are not necessarily identical to the prewar or wartime examples, although they generally are. I must admit having assumed that the colours Light and Dark Admiralty Grey are those referred to as 507C and 507A, but I don't think that I've seen that spelt out plainly.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:57 pm 
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Graham Boak wrote:
.... termed (perhaps loosely) as bronze-green......

......The post war colours are not necessarily identical to the prewar or wartime examples, although they generally are. I must admit having assumed that the colours Light and Dark Admiralty Grey are those referred to as 507C and 507A, but I don't think that I've seen that spelt out plainly.


Dear Michael and Graham,

Just to highlight two things:

a. The RN flight deck colour was termed "Bronze grey" not bronze green reinforcing Graham's point about the Navy having its own colours. It was a very large independent organisation then in those halcyon days long before joint procurement.

b. If BS381 C #31 Light Battleship Grey = 507C and #32 Dark Battleship Grey = 507A (B really) it will have been the purer grey pre 1933 and 1936 versions of 507C and 507B respectively as the #31 and #32 remain unchanged through all the editions of BS381C 1931- 1944 inclusive whereas the mix for 507C and 507B changed twice before WW2 making them slightly more blue in 1933 and 1936. It is in the 1948 edition that #31 becomes #631 and is given a new name "Light grey", #32 becomes #632 and renamed Dark Admiralty Grey, the colour of both still unchanged from 1931, and #697 is introduced as a new creation named Light Admiralty Grey but is in fact distinctly light blue. #697 is certainly not the wartime or pre war 507C.

Best wishes


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:46 pm 
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Graham Boak wrote:
Thanks for a fascinating and informative post. However, the majority of it applies post-WW2, not the pre-war ship under discussion. That the British Army used colours called bronze-greens pre-WW2 (and postwar), and that these were found in BS381C, is true. However, this does not imply that a colour in use by the RN prewar, termed (perhaps loosely) as bronze-green, must therefore be any one of these colours or necessarily bear other than a vague relationship to them. Presumably it bears some relation or the term would not have been used.

Perhaps I can add to this post some help for other interested parties. Re BS987C: judging from the initial number and the linked name these would appear to be the Army's wartime SCC colours. For more information on these see Mike Starmer's work for the MAFVA in http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm. During WW2 these colours were applied to land vehicles operated by the RN and the RAF.

Of the Aircraft colours, Office Red should be Post Office Red (now called Cherry Red). For interesting discussions on the wartime and immediately post-war aircraft colours see Paul Lucas's series of Camouflage and Markings monographs from Guideline Publications. For the wartime Ministry of Aviation Production's colour charts see British Aviation Colours of WW2, from Arms & Armour press, but this does not cover any link between the prewar, wartime and postwar colours.

The post war colours are not necessarily identical to the prewar or wartime examples, although they generally are. I must admit having assumed that the colours Light and Dark Admiralty Grey are those referred to as 507C and 507A, but I don't think that I've seen that spelt out plainly.


Thanks I have the MAFVA article. Picked it up from Mike Cooper some years back when we were discussing the inter service use of colours.

Oops, a typo on PO Red which is also an RN colour for the Red Plum.

The only time I have seen the term battleship grey used as a paint colour in service documents was by the RAF. The 1937 Kings Regs and Air Council Instructions for RAF Marine craft said all upper deck wood work including masts etc. are to be battleship grey but no comment as to which one. This was repeated in the 1941 edition with the same comment. The next issue in 1947 specified light battleship grey for upper works and dark battleship grey for the decks. May be that use of colours was the same back in 1937.

Back to the topic of deck paint and the 1939 AFO 2589, could the colours listed as dark grey and light grey be the two BS381 colours 31 and 32?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:22 pm 
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Dick,

b. If BS381 C #31 Light Battleship Grey = 507C and #32 Dark Battleship Grey = 507A (B really) it will have been the purer grey pre 1933 and 1936 versions of 507C and 507B respectively as the #31 and #32 remain unchanged through all the editions of BS381C 1931- 1944 inclusive whereas the mix for 507C and 507B changed twice before WW2 making them slightly more blue in 1933 and 1936. It is in the 1948 edition that #31 becomes #631 and is given a new name "Light grey", #32 becomes #632 and renamed Dark Admiralty Grey, the colour of both still unchanged from 1931, and #697 is introduced as a new creation named Light Admiralty Grey but is in fact distinctly light blue. #697 is certainly not the wartime or pre war 507C.

#632 when made up in a paint shop has blue tint in it but not #631. That sounds like the colour comes from a time when 507B had blue pigment/paste but 507C did not. The 1920s?

Talking of timelines and post war, there are several Australian CNOs with 597B and C in them up to 1963

CNO dated 1960 which is adoption of an RN AFO 2126 1960 listing patterns with their numbers changed being:
Paste, blue black, for dark grey paint, pattern 507B, in 28-lb. keg from 370A to 3574
Paste, blue black, for dark grey paint, pattern 507B, in 7-lb. tin . from 370A to 3575
Paste, blue black, for light grey paint, pattern 507C, in 28-lb. keg from 371 to 371
Paste, blue black, for light grey paint, pattern 507C, in 7-lb. tin . from 371 to 3577

Another CNO quotes AFO 1995 1961 with new number as below:
507B Paint, oil based, dark grey 10667
507C Paint, oil based, light grey 10668

Another CNO quotes AFO 1671 1963:
3574 Paste, blue black, for dark grey paint Patt. 0442/10667, in 28-lb. shipment keg cwt. 3574
3574 Paste, blue black, for dark grey paint, Patt. 0442/10667, in 28-lb. trade keg lb. 473009
371 Paste, blue black, for light grey paint, Patt. 0442/10668, in 28-lb. shipment keg cwt. 371
371 Paste, blue black, for light grey paint, Patt. 0442/10668, in 28-lb. trade keg .. lb. 473010

So I wonder when did the RN stop holding stocks for these colours even though they had been replaced by newer colours? Could the older colours have been used for harbour craft or work boats?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:34 pm 
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Model completed.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:26 am 
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Excellent!
Thank you


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 3:25 am 
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Great work Sutho. It seems the Ark pre-order on HLJ keeps getting delayed month after month, June now...

A question from a fellow Aussie - with no colourcoats, or paint chip charts: AP507B, is Tamiya XF66 Light Grey anywhere near it? In some of the colour footage you can see of Hood and other RN ships, it looks similarly dark and blue-tinged; yet on some of the models finished on the net, the paint looks like a much lighter bluey grey. Is this scale effect? Which is most accurate?

Colourcoats being stocked again in Oz would be a total blessing, can Sovereign advise where these might be available?


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 3:30 am 
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Dave Burns at Creative Models is stocking Sovereign Paints.

http://www.creativemodels.com.au/shopma ... cat3=NAVAL


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:30 am 
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Jack G wrote:
Great work Sutho. It seems the Ark pre-order on HLJ keeps getting delayed month after month, June now...

A question from a fellow Aussie - with no colourcoats, or paint chip charts: AP507B, is Tamiya XF66 Light Grey anywhere near it? In some of the colour footage you can see of Hood and other RN ships, it looks similarly dark and blue-tinged; yet on some of the models finished on the net, the paint looks like a much lighter bluey grey. Is this scale effect? Which is most accurate?

Colourcoats being stocked again in Oz would be a total blessing, can Sovereign advise where these might be available?


The Tamiya XF66 is nothing like the old WEM tim now Sovereign Hobbies Colour coats.

According to the experts the colour coat range for 507B is not in dispute unlike B5 so if you can get your hands on the paint it may help. it definitely does have a blue tint to it.

I do have some old tins that are empty that I kept with the colour lid if you would like them sent to you to try and match up your own colour I could send.

I am down to my last tin of 507B now and only have half a tin left so am not that well stocked up in it.

Regarding Tamiya I believe their dark grey looked close to 507A which is used for decks. It was different by negligible.

I mixed up the flight deck colours myself.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:54 am 
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Hi all,
@Sutho, your Ark Royal looks great!! :thumbs_up_1: :big_grin:
Regarding the aircrafts, how would you rate the accuracy and detail of the Fairey Albacore included in the kit? I am currently scratch-building a 1/350 scale model of the HMS Lion battleship 1938 and in the plans drawings from National Maritime Museum, this particular battleship would have carried the floatplane version of Fairey Albacore. Modification to make it a floatplane using the kit's Albacore as a basis is rather simple. So, I would love to know and decide whether I should possibly get an unused aircraft from the kit or a resin copy of it from some kind gents on this board or not.

Thanks!!
Aop.

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--1/350 Tamiya DKM Tirpitz Nov 1944

--1/350 scratch-build HMS Lion never built battleship (1938)

And our artworks!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:15 pm 
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Evening all.

After a bit of a learning curve, I've finally got a sample I am confident is representative of Admiralty Pattern 631 Bronze Grey.

Image

There was more to it than I first thought, but I've learned a bit about how RN paints were made in the process.

We have added this to the colour range now.

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:19 pm 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Evening all.

After a bit of a learning curve, I've finally got a sample I am confident is representative of Admiralty Pattern 631 Bronze Grey.


There was more to it than I first thought, but I've learned a bit about how RN paints were made in the process.

We have added this to the colour range now.



Great news! Now tapping foot, waiting patiently for some tins of this to arrive in Australia. :woo_hoo:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:15 am 
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Aop Aur wrote:
Hi all,
@Sutho, your Ark Royal looks great!! :thumbs_up_1: :big_grin:
Regarding the aircrafts, how would you rate the accuracy and detail of the Fairey Albacore included in the kit? I am currently scratch-building a 1/350 scale model of the HMS Lion battleship 1938 and in the plans drawings from National Maritime Museum, this particular battleship would have carried the floatplane version of Fairey Albacore. Modification to make it a floatplane using the kit's Albacore as a basis is rather simple. So, I would love to know and decide whether I should possibly get an unused aircraft from the kit or a resin copy of it from some kind gents on this board or not.

Thanks!!
Aop.

Edit: I now know there is no Albacore on board the ship. I misunderstood some texts on wikipedia, sorry!

Aop.

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--1/350 Tamiya DKM Tirpitz Nov 1944

--1/350 scratch-build HMS Lion never built battleship (1938)

And our artworks!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:14 pm 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Evening all.

After a bit of a learning curve, I've finally got a sample I am confident is representative of Admiralty Pattern 631 Bronze Grey.

Image

There was more to it than I first thought, but I've learned a bit about how RN paints were made in the process.

We have added this to the colour range now.


Thanks its a lot darker than my one I mixed as I expected. Lucky I did not glue the parts on and applied it thinly to use as an undercoat. Just out of curiosity how does your new colour compare to your existing stock of G20 Medium grey green which you have had for some time?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:12 am 
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Sutho wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
Evening all.

After a bit of a learning curve, I've finally got a sample I am confident is representative of Admiralty Pattern 631 Bronze Grey.

Image

There was more to it than I first thought, but I've learned a bit about how RN paints were made in the process.

We have added this to the colour range now.


Thanks its a lot darker than my one I mixed as I expected. Lucky I did not glue the parts on and applied it thinly to use as an undercoat. Just out of curiosity how does your new colour compare to your existing stock of G20 Medium grey green which you have had for some time?


Hi,

The G20 is a bit lighter - similar to your mix infact.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:41 am 
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Sutho wrote:
Jack G wrote:
Great work Sutho. It seems the Ark pre-order on HLJ keeps getting delayed month after month, June now...

A question from a fellow Aussie - with no colourcoats, or paint chip charts: AP507B, is Tamiya XF66 Light Grey anywhere near it? In some of the colour footage you can see of Hood and other RN ships, it looks similarly dark and blue-tinged; yet on some of the models finished on the net, the paint looks like a much lighter bluey grey. Is this scale effect? Which is most accurate?

Colourcoats being stocked again in Oz would be a total blessing, can Sovereign advise where these might be available?


The Tamiya XF66 is nothing like the old WEM tim now Sovereign Hobbies Colour coats.

According to the experts the colour coat range for 507B is not in dispute unlike B5 so if you can get your hands on the paint it may help. it definitely does have a blue tint to it.

I do have some old tins that are empty that I kept with the colour lid if you would like them sent to you to try and match up your own colour I could send.

I am down to my last tin of 507B now and only have half a tin left so am not that well stocked up in it.

Regarding Tamiya I believe their dark grey looked close to 507A which is used for decks. It was different by negligible.

I mixed up the flight deck colours myself.



Thank you Sutho that would be very kind of you.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:07 am 
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A couple of weeks ago we dispatched around a thousand tins of Colourcoats to Creative Models Australia. I'm not sure whether they've arrived yet but they'll be back on sale in the southern hemisphere imminently.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:21 am 
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Does anyone know which size of searchlight is depicted in the Merit kit?
Tia


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:11 am 
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I have this version by Aoshima in 1/700: http://static.hlj.com/images/aos/aos01018_0.jpg WEM makes this PE set: https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/p/WEM ... 6yU-zVXmYM Is this this PE set appropriate for this version of Arc Royal? I also intend on using 3DModelParts weapons upgrade set: http://www.3dmodelparts.com/1-700-ark-r ... apons-set/ . :wave_1:


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