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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:20 am 
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Seeking help in determining the configuration of the Flag Plotting Station enclosure as of May 8, 1942.

Knowing that there is not much information available, and having studied the available references and followed the discussion here, what is the current conventional wisdom regarding the enclosure's shape, extents aft, number of windows, and height?

It's clear from the photos presented in this thread and elsewhere that the Flag Plotting Station (the level above the Pilot House) was lengthened forward at Pearl Harbor in April, '42, and it and the splinter shield look very much like Saratoga's. The enclosure is barely visible in May 8th photos, but had not yet been installed at the time of the superb James Noblin photo (posted again below for reference).

Martin Quinn posted documentary evidence from BuShips stating that the enclosure was to be fabricated to a design using SPS with shatterproof glass. The details, extents and dimensions remain awfully uncertain since good photos of the enclosure seem to have been lost to history.

It could be speculated that the enclosure follows the angular splinter shield and that there was probably one shatterproof glass panel per shield facet. The top of the enclosure would probably be level with the roof of the Flag Plot. How far back it extends could be extrapolated from the number of glass panels visible in May 8th photos, assuming that the glass panels were all the same size, which seems reasonable. But I have no proof for any of this - yet.

Also seeking any other information regarding features of the bridge tower specific to April-May '42 (not sure if "island" is the correct term for CV-2 class). For example, there appears to be a small, roundish platform partially enclosed by a solid shield fixed to the forward face of the wind break on the upper top Fire Control Station (the large uppermost platform on top the tripod) in the Noblin photo. Very interesting feature and certainly there are more.

The boxy structure under the Spotting Top I believe to be a Radio Direction Finding Station. I think it is the same structure that appears in May 8th photos. Is that right?

Any help, even reasonable guesses, is appreciated.


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CV-2 1942.04.13 YD-69_04131942_islandcrop.jpg
CV-2 1942.04.13 YD-69_04131942_islandcrop.jpg [ 31.02 KiB | Viewed 5250 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:53 am 
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For future reference:

The above question was discussed in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=160790

1/350th and 1/700th replacement bridge towers are now available (I'm not associated with the the designer of Shapeways).
BTW, bridge towers for a 1936 version have also been designed: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=160755

Cheers,

Marijn


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:48 pm 
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Sorry for a double post. I posted a similar message in the Manufacturers thread. I wasn't sure whether it would reach people on this thread so I've reposted. It was originally a response to the discussion of Model Monkey's (I have no association with Steve) LEX bridge reproductions and the curved 1.1" bulwarks / splinter shields as shown in Steve Wiper's WP #33. I had asked MM to consider producing the curved bulwarks since they are shown in a credible source document (and he did). I have never seen a photo that shows the fore or aft ends of those bulwarks as flat, but have seen models and conversion kits that represent them that way. It was a quiet Sunday, so I thought I might generate some discussion as I have become convinced they were actually rounded on the leading or trailing ends.

After receiving the curved bulwarks for the LEX 1.1" mounts installed at PHNY from Steve, discussed above, I undertook to review the blueprint in Steve Wiper's WP #33 again just for grins. In the early days (a few years back before WP #33 was published) I saw the "pig pen" style of the bulwarks on several models and a conversion kit and agreed that shape made sense. All flat plates with no messy bending or cutting. Must be right. I now think the curved bulwarks are correct, so I'll state my case and let the splinters fly as they may. It's Sunday, and quiet. Why not? I should add that now that my thoughts have changed, it looks to me that the few photos available agree with me - as you'd suspect, you can start to see you are right when you think you are. Human nature.
Starting with the only hard evidence at hand (photos being softer evidence in this case because of distance or blurring), the drawing in Steve's book has lots of stuff that make it interesting. The drawing tells a story - it is not just a drawing a draftsman knocked out, and was checked and approved, end of story. In my training as an engineer, I've done quite a number of these, so it was fun to go back and reacquaint myself with something I'm glad I don't have to do any more.
The drawing in question is actually two drawings, that is, the first drawing was completed and submitted. Based on feedback from a Navy Bureau, changes were made resulting in the second drawing which Steve published. The first drawing was "Pearl Harbor Plan No. CV2-74/2-1" and titled "USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) General Arrangement New Anti-Aircraft Battery & Fire Control" with an original approval date 3-19-42. The three views of the 1.1" batteries and the curved bulwarks were not drawn on this plan as originally drawn. In the original version of the drawing, the 1.1"s forward of the bridge and aft of the stack / uptake group were arranged as pairs - one mount to port, the adjacent mount to starboard - with another pair forward of the first. In the case of the forward two pairs, all four of those mounts are placed on the deck (01 level) where the #2 8" turret had been removed - none of those four 1.1s was located ON the flight deck. A similar arrangement was implemented in the drawing behind the stack, with the exception that the aftmost pair of side by side mounts were to be located on the flight deck. Adjacent to each group of four 1.1" mounts, the plans also show tubs for pairs of directors for the 1.1s. Other work is called out on the plans, but I'll ignore it for this discussion.
However, change was in the wind. At least in the sections of the drawing relating to the installation of 1.1" mounts and fire control after the 8" turrets were removed. In three places above a previous drawing note describing the above discussed 1.1" mounts' and FC installation, a single line is added "Proposed to Bureau But Not Approved". Presumably this is BuAer "not Approving". Tracy has posted a message dated 17 April from the Navy Yard back to Chief Bureau of Ships which says the reason for the disapproval "was an unacceptable encroachment on the flight deck".
In any event, Plan A was out, and Plan B was proposed. Plan B is detailed in the drawing Steve published which is much the same drawing as before, but with some changes and detail drawings newly added. This drawing (from which those detail vignette drawings of the curved 1.1" bulwarks Steve posted above are extracted) is now called "Pearl Harbor Plan No. CV2-74/2-1, Alt. 1"
The 1.1" mounts are still shown in pairs, but each pair is now arranged fore and aft. The two pairs forward of the bridge are arranged with all four mounts in a single line. The end result of this inline arrangement is that now the forward pair is mounted on the flight deck, not at the 01 level as in the previous drawing. It should be noted that the pair of mounts located on the 01 level where the #2 8" mount was removed are offset to starboard as far as possible so that the mounts thensellves are not on the centerline of that platform. All splinter shields on all the mounts are located no further to port than the outer edge of the already existing stack and bridge structures. Each of these newly added vignette drawings has a short paragraph with some details and is preceded by "(Temporary)". In the vignette drawing of the aft 1.1" (Temporary) drawing the aftmost pair of mounts are arranged fore - aft and mounted on the flight deck. From the message dated 17 April referenced above, it appears the original plan was to have three 1.1" mounts located inline and on the flight deck, but there was insufficient time to remove the third 1.1" mount intended for this threesome from its current position forward of the stack and behind the bridge. When LEX sailed, there were three, not the planned four 1.1" mounts aft of the stack and I suggest the drawing represents the ship as completed when she sailed for Coral Sea.
There's more. See page 39 of WP#33 for the following part of the discussion. The upper right hand corner of the full drawing lists applicable references for the drawing, and they are numbered A - X, with each ref having a drawing number and title. Somewhat below that box is a smaller but similar box marker "Alterations". In between these two boxes is some Text titled "General Notes". And here is where the story becomes a bit clearer when taken in conjunction with Tracy's letter of 17 April 1942, a "Clipper Air Mail" letter from PHNY back to DC telling the Boss what was accomplished to LEX. (This letter was also published in Steve Wiper's earlier WP #11 "LEXINGTON Class Carriers".)
Going back to the original version of the drawing, and taking a closer look at each of the blocks of handwritten text under the "Proposed to Bureau But Not Approved", the very last words in each block of text is "See Ref 'V'" From the list of references, Ref V is P.H.No. CV2-74/2-8 New Proposed Location of 1.1" Guns & Dir Gen'l Arrgmt 'C' - a drawing attached to the Clipper letter of 17 April as Enclosure (B). While that drawing is not any that I've seen, it seems to be a modification of the original drawing we are discussing here before the "Temporary" Plan B was added and (I say) implemented before LEX sailed. Paragraph 4 of the 17 April letter seems to be devoted to convincing the Bureau that the original proposal with port and starboard pairs should not have been disapproved, and should be implemented when the ship is next available. Part of that paragraph: "The Commanding Officer has stated, and this opinion is concurred with by the Yard, that the arrangement shown on Enclosure (B) is much more preferable than an "in line" arrangement, and offers much less restriction to flight operations." There is a reasonable point here since none of the 1.1" tubs would have been on the flight deck forward of the bridge, and only a single pair aft of the stack would be on the flight deck, but offset to starboard and actually partially overhanging the side of the hull.
Applying the same scrutiny to the handwritten blocks of text under the heading "Temporary 1.1" Gun Installation - Ford. / - Aft.", the very last words in each block are "See Ref G". Ref G is titled "P.H.No. CV2 - 74/2-3 Temp Inst'l'n of 7-1.1 A.A.M. Guns". The 7 is not aligned with the other text, almost as though an 8 was erased and a 7 put in its place. Yeah, I know some will roll there eyes on that one.
Finally to the General Notes section. There is a triangular flag labelled Alt 1. with two arrows drawn from it. The first arrow points to this text: 1 - Work to be installed at a later date includes references U, V, T, W, X. The second arrow points to: 2. Work now installed includes references L,I,G,A,B,D,E,F,C,H,M,Q,P,R,O,S.
In the Alterations block, next to Alt 1. it states "Added General Notes # 1. & 2." followed by two sets of initials and dated 4/15/42.
While I certainly believe there are times when blueprints are not necessarily indicative of work actually completed, in this case I do believe these blueprint drawings show work actually completed on LEX. The dated drawings would seem to be documents showing what had already been accomplished rather than the proposed work. I'm even betting that the number 7 was changed from an 8 in ref g. indicating the lack of time to complete the installation of all 8 for reasons described in para 3 of the 17 April Clipper letter. OBTW, I suspect LEX was out of the PHNY by 15 April, if so these drawings and correspondence represent after the fact documentation vice proposed or as yet uncompleted work.
By extension, this line of reasoning supports, in my view, the shape of the 1.1" splinter shields / bulwarks as being curved at the fore or aft ends as the subject drawing shows.

I always like to say that a picture saves a thousand words. This one didn't.

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Last edited by John W. on Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:15 pm 
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John W,

I have been looking through the past Lex pages and I can't (or missed) find the Clipper letter of Tracy's that you mentioned. Could you please share or tell us where to look?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Jon C Ryckert wrote:
John W,

I have been looking through the past Lex pages and I can't (or missed) find the Clipper letter of Tracy's that you mentioned. Could you please share or tell us where to look?


Jon
On page 20 of this CASF LEX thread, about a third of the way down the page. I refer to it as the Clipper Letter because it is so labelled. Since the USN had taken over the Pan Am Clippers by this time, I'm assuming that label denotes a secure (courier) air mail routing. Since there were drawings and photos attached (meaning the contents could not be sent as a straight naval message), that would be the fastest way to get this info back to D.C. from Pearl.
John

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:36 pm 
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Thanks, John W. Not sure how I missed it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:28 pm 
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Here's the post / documents in question.
I haven't had a chance to sit down myself and read through all of your post, John - I need to set aside some time when I can read through and comprehend as opposed to just skimming.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:50 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
Here's the post / documents in question.
I haven't had a chance to sit down myself and read through all of your post, John - I need to set aside some time when I can read through and comprehend as opposed to just skimming.


That'd be great. Hopefully the point I am making is clear and logical from the information I reference. This is part of the interesting part of this hobby - digging into the past to try to understand what really went on.

Edit 11/18: I went one more time back to WP #33, and on page three, last column of text on the right, end of the first paragraph, Steve states that LEX and her TF-11 detached from YORKTOWN's TF-17 south of the New Hebrides Islands 16 March and arrived at Pearl Harbor 26 March, 1942. That arrival date would be eight days after the first version of the plans discussed above were prepared on 18 March 1942 (the plans' original preparation date also being two days after LEX detached on station). That would make sense - the yard was told she was inbound for an availability on or about the time she detached, and so the preparation work and plans were begun.
Continuing in the next paragraph :"CV-2 was immediately taken in hand by navy yard personnel for major modifications to her armament." In the next paragraph, "On 14 April, she hoisted 14 F2A-3 fighters of VMF-211, . . . . to ferry them to a Central Pacific Island." First paragraph page 4: "LEXINGTON's TF-11, with cruisers NEW ORLEANS, MINNEAPOLIS, and 7 destroyers, sortied from Pearl Harbor 15 April, headed south, by southwest towards New Hebrides. 15 April is the date on the Alt 1. plans discussed above, my point again being that the plans represent the final configuration of LEX after the work at PHNY was completed, at least for the AA upgrades (if the 1.1" quads could be called that). I didn't mention it above, but there is also a plan view of the footprint for the enlarged Flag plot.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:10 pm 
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Bump.
I know Tracy's been really busy of late, but I thought I might get some discussion from other knowledgeable posters about the drawings in Steve Wipers book and my discussion points above. My bottom line remains that I think we do know LEX's final configuration sufficiently well to get the model right. And thanks to Steve Larsen, we now have the correctly shaped 1.1" splinter shields / bulwarks on the flight deck and 01 levels in front of the pilothouse and aft of the stack. We've been discussing this subject of what PHNY did for a long time, now I think it can be settled. Sorry if it puts some fine models already built a little off. But I think that's why we discuss these things - get at the answers as best we can for accuracy in modeling.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:56 pm 
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Nice pic of ?Saratoga (I think she still had her guns?) firing her 8":

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-U-S-Airc ... SwAKxWaNDa

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:13 pm 
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Admiral John Byng wrote:
Nice pic of ?Saratoga (I think she still had her guns?) firing her 8":

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-U-S-Airc ... SwAKxWaNDa

Unquestionably it is Lexington rather than Saratoga.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:00 pm 
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Thanks Dick.

Has anyone used the Nautilus wood decks with their Trumpeter 1/350 scale Lex or Sara? Do they add to the model's appearance or is the plastic deck OK?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:42 pm 
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I considered mine more work than it was worth, albeit I had one of his first generation decks that were about as thick as the plastic piece. I'm not sure if what he's selling now is a thin overlay or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:30 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
I considered mine more work than it was worth, albeit I had one of his first generation decks that were about as thick as the plastic piece. I'm not sure if what he's selling now is a thin overlay or not.


Ditto.
One significant problem I could never overcome with Version 1.0 as that the wood grain from the basswood piece on which the deck was laser etched could never be eliminated or even toned down much without equally covering the details. Upon close examination with a magnifier, the problem is that the laser cuts a wider line into the heartwood grains than it does in the non-heartwood areas. So the etched lines actually amplify the pre-existing grain pattern of the wood. This results in a grain pattern visible along the length of the wood piece, and which is different on the second piece if the deck requires two pieces for a long carrier deck - for me, not very realistic yet very visible in normal lighting.
On the other hand, the LEX hull had a decided yaw to it - the bow curved a bit left as I recall - that others I know building the kit also noticed. With the factory plastic deck, this pretty well went away because of the thickness of the deck forced the hull straight. I laminated a another piece of basswood to the underside of the Nautilus deck, carving it to fit into the hull, and that wood laminate was also strong enough to force the hull back to a straight centerline.
I like wooden decks - have used several on projects - but only the thin veneer kind for the reasons explained above regarding the persistence of the grain of the original wood. The veneer types, being made from thin strips of wood, look far more realistic to my eye in replicating a planked deck.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:16 pm 
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Thanks I will stick with the plastic deck.

To answer Tracy's question, it looks like there are two Nautilus decks available, one is the thick one and another thin one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:34 am 
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I painted mine in teak, washed it several times with Measure 20B and did some LIGHT sanding in heavy traffic areas of the flight deck. Came out looking really nice! :smallsmile:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:11 pm 
ModelMonkey wrote:
Seeking help in determining the configuration of the Flag Plotting Station enclosure as of May 8, 1942.

Knowing that there is not much information available, and having studied the available references and followed the discussion here, what is the current conventional wisdom regarding the enclosure's shape, extents aft, number of windows, and height?

It's clear from the photos presented in this thread and elsewhere that the Flag Plotting Station (the level above the Pilot House) was lengthened forward at Pearl Harbor in April, '42, and it and the splinter shield look very much like Saratoga's. The enclosure is barely visible in May 8th photos, but had not yet been installed at the time of the superb James Noblin photo (posted again below for reference).

Martin Quinn posted documentary evidence from BuShips stating that the enclosure was to be fabricated to a design using SPS with shatterproof glass. The details, extents and dimensions remain awfully uncertain since good photos of the enclosure seem to have been lost to history.

It could be speculated that the enclosure follows the angular splinter shield and that there was probably one shatterproof glass panel per shield facet. The top of the enclosure would probably be level with the roof of the Flag Plot. How far back it extends could be extrapolated from the number of glass panels visible in May 8th photos, assuming that the glass panels were all the same size, which seems reasonable. But I have no proof for any of this - yet.

Also seeking any other information regarding features of the bridge tower specific to April-May '42 (not sure if "island" is the correct term for CV-2 class). For example, there appears to be a small, roundish platform partially enclosed by a solid shield fixed to the forward face of the wind break on the upper top Fire Control Station (the large uppermost platform on top the tripod) in the Noblin photo. Very interesting feature and certainly there are more.

The boxy structure under the Spotting Top I believe to be a Radio Direction Finding Station. I think it is the same structure that appears in May 8th photos. Is that right?

Any help, even reasonable guesses, is appreciated.


Image
hope this helps. Also look closely behind the construction going on. You will see in the middle of the picture a sky loook out platform like Sara had after rebuilding. Just a deck lower.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:33 am 
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Dennis, if you are referring to that piece hanging down just behind the FC radar I think you are referring to the top of the former 8" director. The odd shaped part had windows that would fold down and allow spotters to have an unobstructed view. Some models have them this way. The director level was enclosed for the equipment serving the FC radar. Is that what you are talking about?

James


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:02 pm 
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DennisJP wrote:
hope this helps.


Hey Dennis, just so you know, US Copyright law will allow you to post an image from a book under the fair use law if you do it WITH ATTRIBUTION. So in the future, to protect your posts from possible take-down requests, you might want to say that's from Classic Warships "Warship Pictorial #33 - USS Lexington CV-2." Since that photo has added commentary it is definitely copy written and not subject to the usual US Navy public domain clause.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:36 pm 
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lvsquarerigger wrote:
...The odd shaped part had windows that would fold down and allow spotters to have an unobstructed view. Some models have them this way. The director level was enclosed for the equipment serving the FC radar. Is that what you are talking about?

James

Concur. The Model Monkey 3D-printed design has them down to match the photo shown above.


Attachments:
USS Lexington 1942.port.png
USS Lexington 1942.port.png [ 197.85 KiB | Viewed 4523 times ]
USS Lexington 1942.starboard.png
USS Lexington 1942.starboard.png [ 199.47 KiB | Viewed 4523 times ]

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