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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:29 pm 
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G’day

I am starting on the 1/350 Trumpeter Lexington, and wondered whether any of the extant plans of the ship accurately depict the layout of the flight deck planking. The kit shows it as all transverse, but photos appear to show longitudinal planking in some areas, notably around the forward end. I am building a pre March 42 refit version.

The Booklet of Plans doesn’t have this level of detail, would the Builders Plans (ala Floating Drydock) detail the deck planking? Any advice would be welcome. I haven’t decided yet whether I would scratch a new deck, it will depend on both available references and my estimation of how noticeable the changes would be under a flight deck filled with planes.

Cheers

Steve


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 4:25 pm 
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Stephen Allen wrote:
G’day

I am starting on the 1/350 Trumpeter Lexington, and wondered whether any of the extant plans of the ship accurately depict the layout of the flight deck planking. The kit shows it as all transverse, but photos appear to show longitudinal planking in some areas, notably around the forward end. I am building a pre March 42 refit version.

The Booklet of Plans doesn’t have this level of detail, would the Builders Plans (ala Floating Drydock) detail the deck planking? Any advice would be welcome. I haven’t decided yet whether I would scratch a new deck, it will depend on both available references and my estimation of how noticeable the changes would be under a flight deck filled with planes.

Cheers

Steve


Steve,

You are correct, the Lex had some planking that did not run perpendicular with the hull. She mounted a early style catapult that was later removed. This is an often overlooked detail, I want to say the Fujimi kit for all its issues actually captured this detail. For some reason(feel like I read it somewhere once) they just planked in the trough that it left behind.

Attachment:
File comment: Photo from Rick Davis
6F2A0970-F96F-4863-825E-97FD1E7081DA.jpeg
6F2A0970-F96F-4863-825E-97FD1E7081DA.jpeg [ 90.37 KiB | Viewed 9023 times ]


It remained that way even after her bow was enlarged as you still see it on the wreck today.

Attachment:
65E14F37-33F9-40CA-876B-DA6EF18C460E.jpeg
65E14F37-33F9-40CA-876B-DA6EF18C460E.jpeg [ 314.39 KiB | Viewed 9023 times ]


I know I have a drawing at home somewhere that looks like it’s pretty close if not completely accurate. Just out of town for the next week on business. I will double check when I return.

HTH
Matt

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 12:26 am 
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Thanks Matt

Highly appreciated

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 3:46 am 
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Hi Matt
Hope you can find the drawings . One of the people I am making the Lexington hull for is a real stickler for accuracy. He is a retired US Coast Guard Commander.
Hope you have a good trip.
Richard :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Hi, Richard:

I am starting to prepare to scratch building 1/200 scale Lexington battlecruisers, which I intend to start in 2-3 month, after finishing the 1/200 Missouri I've been working on since Dec 2017. Some of the photos you post for the hull I've never seen before, and shows the shape of the top part of the rudder and the propeller bosses were totally different from what I expected. Can you share where you got those reference photos and also any drawings?

Thanks

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:09 am 
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Chuck
The photos of the rudder and the knuckle area are from " Squadron Signal 34005 " USS Lexington CV-2 by David Doyle . I was confused by the body lines extending into what should be the rudder . That is were I saw the rudder being the same shap as the hull ahead of it . Let me know if there is something I need to post .
Richard


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:32 pm 
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There is alot of information in the " Warship International No.4 1977 and No. 3 1978 . I got the prop shaft angels from them .
Richard


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:12 pm 
MattFlegal wrote:
Attachment:
thumbnail (2).jpg
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I will say as I go down this path that thank God for Shapeways! The various pieces from ModelMonkey are excellent, the funnel is a work of art. Trys Bennet is very kindly doing the 1934 airwing and the first two are beautiful, The kit planes aren't great anyways but compared to these there isn't a comparison.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/XRFCS ... d=95793103
https://www.shapeways.com/product/P4F3X ... d=95794087


Long-time lurker -- decided to join when I saw my name mentioned! Many thanks! If it wasn't for ShapeWays printing inconsistency, it would be a lot easier to make the rest of the air wing, too. Did you ever try casting them, Matt? I was wondering if they work better in resin than in FUD?

I'm building a '36 Saratoga -- does anyone have a good photo of the range finders on the spotting tops?
I have the Trumpeter Lexington and Saratoga, and the Lexington kit has basically been parted out -- I noticed the non-optical part of the Mk 19 look very different than the ones in the Saratoga model. Are either even close? I know the optical range finders are wrong, but I have yet to see a clear photo of what either are supposed to look like?

I've also got to echo what Matt said about Steve's Lex\Sara Shapeways parts. I have the '36 bridge, funnel and turrets (and am thinking about getting the rudder, even though I already have the kit rudder on)-- they're absolutely outstanding!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Dick J wrote:
The Lexingtons were built with 4 sets of MK-19 directors. I use the word "sets" because there were 2 components to each set. The main part of the director may be seen in this shot of Northampton.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/026/0402626.jpg
The second element was a rangefinder (with a periscope) that was later fitted on that vacant rounded protrusion just aft of Northampton's MK-19 main element. Lexington carried these sets, unmodified, to the end. 2 sets were on the fore top with the main elements toward the center and the rangefinders outboard, on the "wings" of the top. The other 2 sets were on the top platform on the back side of the stack. The MK-19 main elements were closer to the stack with the rangefinders aft of them. There were plans to combine the elements, as was done on the Northamptons and Pensacolas, but that was never done on Lex. Later plans to use MK-33 directors were also not implemented. Only Saratoga got upgraded directors, MK-37's in 1942.

None of Lexington's 1.1's had directors. The only MK-3 (FC) radar was installed on the former 8" control station above and behind the big rangefinder. I am not sure what you are referencing when you talk about the "box structure".



Question on this... the booklet of general plans (USS Lexington, 1941) shows the gun director as a large cylinder:
Image
This is exactly how Trumpeter has represented it on the USS Saratoga model; yet the version that comes with the USS Lexington model is closer in shape to the one shown here:
Image
(This is the USS Northampton photo posted earlier in this thread). I've looked through hundreds of photos of the Lex and Sara and can't seem to find any good photo of this director. (a lot of the photos have it covered by a canvas tarp, which I'm considering doing if I can't find a decent photo).
The rangefinders were also difficult to find a photo of, but I think I've found a reasonable few that allowed me to build a 3d model for printing:
Image

Ideally, I'd love to print both the director and the rangefinder. Does anyone have any leads on what this 5" director looked like, and why the drawing on the booklet of general plans looks so different from the photo of an early Mk. 19 director?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:04 am 
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Hello friends. I am your colleague from Russia. I apologize in advance for my weak English. I found a box with the model "Trumpeter 05608 USS CV-2 Lexington carrier 05/1942" in the old house, all the sprues were packed, but there was one "C" sprue missing.
Maybe someone has a gate "C" that he does not need (for example, he replaced it with Model Monkey), I am ready to buy it.

You ask: “Why don’t you buy this part from the same Model Monkey”, and I will answer you - it is expensive for me. The part from Model Monkey stands as a whole model and I cannot afford it.

You ask: "Why didn’t you write to the manufacturer, they will send it to you." Guys, I wrote to the Trumpeter company and there they answered me that the model is old and they have no details from it.

Guys, I really ask you if you have this "C" sprue, sell it or give it to me (or we can exchange sets for assembly) please. It will be very sorry to leave the model not assembled in the box due to the missing gate.

Write your questions and suggestions in this post.
Please write specific offers with a purchase or a gift to my mail serj.tolstow@yandex.ru


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:04 pm 
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It's not surprising to me that the Booklet of General Plans just shows a basic shape for the 5" Mark 19 director... as I understand it, these plans were not intended to be perfectly scaled and accurate plans but rather just to show the locations of equipment (with only basic labeling - the fact it's labeled as "5" director" is not at all surprising). Sometimes these plans show the mark/mod of different equipment but usually just the purpose...

Re: the Mark 19 "rangefinder", this was actually an "altiscope" used for height-finding (with the height being sent to the Mark 19 director element, as on the photo from NORTHAMPTON). Later on the two elements of the Mark 19 director were combined to form "Director Mount Mark 1", the boxy installation seen on the cruisers and battleships. Friedman's "Naval Firepower: Battleship Guns and Gunnery in the Dreadnought Era" mentions this director was "built around the existing Mk 19 and the new stereo rangefinder (Mk 42) intended for the new dual-purpose Mk 37 director. It is not clear why it received this designation instead of being considered a new version of Mk 19."

Friedman's sister volume "Naval Anti-aircraft Guns and Gunnery" has several passages on the Mark 19 director but no drawings, plans, or other schematics unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:34 pm 
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Well gents, I think I've come up with a solution to this rangefinder \ fire control director issue!

I decided to do a 3d model of the Mk 19 fire control director as found on the USS Northampton (posted earlier here), and associated range finders for the spotting tops of the USS Lexington and Saratoga in the 1930s.

The rangefinder is based on a few ship-side photos and the plan-drawing found in Kagero USS Lexington 3d plans. (A problematic source, but photographic evidence supports that the range finder is at least correct).

The Fire control director and round platform is based on the one good photo from the USS Northampton that someone graciously posted here; and several images of the better documented but later enclosed Mk19 director with it's housing removed.

I've placed the forward directors on a rectangular platform that fits inside the rectangular spotting top platform. I don't have any direct evidence of this existing, but there are numerous photos showing the head and shoulders of sailors standing above the wind-break, as well as the very top of the director (what appears to be a sighting mirror?). Given the overall height of the windbreak and known height of the director, there would almost certainly have to be a platform inside the spotting top to allow for this much of the sailor to be seen over the windbreak. A few of the side views posted earlier in this thread also appear to show some sort of platform inside the center of the forward spotting top.

I designed the aft directors inside their tubs, exactly as shown on the Northampton and seemingly confirmed in at least one photo of the Lexington or Saratoga from the 1930s. The only difference is that the tubs are enclosed with canvas, as is shown clearly on several period photos of CV2 and CV3.

I can't swear to these being 100% correct, and as I find more source documents, I will update these items as necessary.

I've also included the sub-caliber guns that go in between the barrels for the four 8" turrets. A little random, but I needed to replace one on my Saratoga set, and no current detail set includes these as far as I'm aware.

I have listed this in my Shapeways shop if anyone else is interested in using this solution. The photos of my WIP Saratoga are using the excellent Model Monkey 1936 superstructure. I have various photos of the renders, actual printed parts and source photos used here: https://www.shapeways.com/product/6H8VJ ... ge-finders

Best,

Trystan


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Very nice work on the model!

Friedman's "Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns and Gunnery" lists the altiscope associated with the Mark 19 director as the "Rangefinder Mount Mk XXXII" (see photo and caption on page 42). I'm traveling for business today but will post a pic of this page when I get back - there's a nice photo of the altiscope being operated by a crew of four taken aboard the cruiser Memphis that shows some good detail.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:26 pm 
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Ian Roberts wrote:
Very nice work on the model!

Friedman's "Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns and Gunnery" lists the altiscope associated with the Mark 19 director as the "Rangefinder Mount Mk XXXII" (see photo and caption on page 42). I'm traveling for business today but will post a pic of this page when I get back - there's a nice photo of the altiscope being operated by a crew of four taken aboard the cruiser Memphis that shows some good detail.


Many thanks! I was able to find your photo from the Google Book preview of that book. I think I may have lucked out, as it looks like the Kagero drawing is of the same range finder, and that’s what I modeled on. The drawing shows the sighting part perpendicular, but the photo shows that it could rotate downward. This is a fascinating detail!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:32 pm 
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Update on this -- this is my interpretation of the forward spotting top. Will need some touch-up paint and a few more sailors, but she's mostly done. I managed to break one of my 3d-printed periscopes on the range finder, so excuse the plastic replacement... :whistle:

Image

Image

Image

I ended up printing new tubs for the range finders, as I wanted the canvas-on-railing look and the flared shape that the kit part lacks. They were a tiny bit too high, but I think it works. I managed to break one of the four from my original print, so I've lowered them about a mm on my re-print for the aft tubs on the funnel. Gun director and range finders were printed. Rigging is Lycra thread mixed with the etch rigging and pulleys from Alliance Model Works and the GMM Saratoga set for turnbuckles and anchors. I think the etch rigging is a little over-scale, but for doubles going into the flag boxes, it really is much easier to work with. Mast and upper yard-arms are brass from Model Master with various bits from the left over PE drawer or the Alliance rigging set. The platform arms are 3d printed and I'm absolutely shocked they survived the print. Another reason why I wanted the PE lower rigging -- any amount of wire tension pulls the arms out of place. Incredibly delicate, but I believe truer to scale than the PE arms in GMM or Eduard.

My interpretation of the Director platform is 3d printed (per my prior post), and the bridge itself is Model Monkey's ShapeWays print ('36).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:37 pm 
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taskforce48 wrote:
Stephen Allen wrote:
G’day

I am starting on the 1/350 Trumpeter Lexington, and wondered whether any of the extant plans of the ship accurately depict the layout of the flight deck planking. The kit shows it as all transverse, but photos appear to show longitudinal planking in some areas, notably around the forward end. I am building a pre March 42 refit version.

The Booklet of Plans doesn’t have this level of detail, would the Builders Plans (ala Floating Drydock) detail the deck planking? Any advice would be welcome. I haven’t decided yet whether I would scratch a new deck, it will depend on both available references and my estimation of how noticeable the changes would be under a flight deck filled with planes.

Cheers

Steve


Steve,

You are correct, the Lex had some planking that did not run perpendicular with the hull. She mounted a early style catapult that was later removed. This is an often overlooked detail, I want to say the Fujimi kit for all its issues actually captured this detail. For some reason(feel like I read it somewhere once) they just planked in the trough that it left behind.

It remained that way even after her bow was enlarged as you still see it on the wreck today.

I know I have a drawing at home somewhere that looks like it’s pretty close if not completely accurate. Just out of town for the next week on business. I will double check when I return.

HTH
Matt


This response is a bit late, but I happened to be looking at the LEX page on Navsource and came across about four pictures that are relevant and more close up. Look for the pictures of RADM Reeves visit to LEX in the late 1920s. I look at the pictures, but I always look at what else maybe in the frame that might be useful in modeling. Often there's lots of stuff that's there but isn't the focus of the picture - much like the photo of the barges at Pearl with the LEX bridge structure in the background.
Check this one of those pictures out:
Attachment:
Lex catapult tracks and parallel wood deck planks.jpg
Lex catapult tracks and parallel wood deck planks.jpg [ 123.66 KiB | Viewed 5612 times ]

Look at the deck - catapult tracks, longitudinal planks adjacent to the tracks. Matt's Rick Davis picture posted just above would seem to show three tracks for the cat - here are two of them shown. Neither has a slot in the deck for a bridle so I am wondering how they worked. A cable pulling a cart along the tracks - the cable running over a pulley at the bow and entering the ship there? Poke around in these photos. Two more photos elsewhere in the LEX page show a long recessed track parallel to the ship centerline that goes from the center of the forward elevator forward quite a distance (70'?) through the palisade then ending. Wondering what that is for.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:47 am 
The track your talking by forward elevator was I believe for aircraft tie down. Similar one in the hangar.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:34 pm 
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The ship's original catapults were used to launch floatplanes (no wheels). Floatplanes were moved around the deck on trolleys in tracks in the deck. The tracks extended from about the aft end of 8" turret #4, aft of the aft elevator, forward to the catapults.

Photos of Lexington pierside at Tacoma at Christmas, 1929, show the ship with a floatplane on a dolley (see below). The port track passes around the palisade. The center and starboard track pass through the palisade. The track layout also provided a path through and around the elevators, presumably to allow the movement of floatplanes on deck with the elevators either raised or lowered.

When the practice of carrying floatplanes was discontinued, the catapults were removed. Photos indicate that the catapult and track pathways remained visible in the flight deck planking pattern.

When Saratoga had new catapults installed, the new catapults were laid parallel and did not follow the path of the original catapults. However, the original planking pattern was mostly preserved creating a very complex flight deck planking pattern forward (see bottom photo).


Attachments:
CV-2 1929.12.a at Tacoma.jpg
CV-2 1929.12.a at Tacoma.jpg [ 160.83 KiB | Viewed 4983 times ]
CV-2 1929.12.c detail.jpg
CV-2 1929.12.c detail.jpg [ 59.81 KiB | Viewed 4983 times ]
CV-3 1945.02.e.detail.jpg
CV-3 1945.02.e.detail.jpg [ 104.86 KiB | Viewed 4983 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:41 pm 
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Here are scans of a plan showing some of the tracks (plan orientation = aft top, forward bottom).


Attachments:
DSC_5541a.jpg
DSC_5541a.jpg [ 117.01 KiB | Viewed 4976 times ]
DSC_5543a.jpg
DSC_5543a.jpg [ 112.09 KiB | Viewed 4976 times ]
DSC_5540a.jpg
DSC_5540a.jpg [ 101.53 KiB | Viewed 4976 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:20 pm 
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020278.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020296.jpg

Here is some pictures showing the track in the flight deck and hangar bay showing the hangar bay track to tie down planes. Both tracks look the same to me.


Last edited by Timmy C on Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Navsource does not enable use of [img] tags with their images unless you've already seen them. Please use only the URL without [img] tags for Navsource photos.


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