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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:11 am 
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stripe at least 11 November 1929. This is one of the earliest known photos of Saratoga with her distinctive funnel stripe. http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020210.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/03.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Don Grasmick wrote:
Greeting my friends, I have a tech question on the pre-war 1936 Saratoga. I have the Warship pictorial #11 (Lex class) but its not being specific enough in answering two questions for me. I was humbly hoping you all could help.

1. What year was the vertical black stripe painted on Sara? I'm doing her in 36' guise and cannot seem to find the answer.



Hey Don,
Sara received her funnel Stripe between April 20-May 3, 1929, after the carrier's return from Fleet Problem IX, when she was taken over command by Capt. Horne while at Long Beach, CA. By your time frame of '36 the vertical was her 'sight-sake' i.d., and she had lost her forward and aft turret top Stripes by mid-'36. Also, if You're thinking about that time frame, She was carrying her first 'E' painted on the funnel Stripe by late '36 that the carrier received in July. And she was carrying the two single pedestals .50-calibers MGs on the Number 2 turret platform by '36, but still retained the single pedestal twin-.50s on the No.3 aft turret.
Good Luck and HTH,
Michael,VA


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:29 pm 
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I have recently, over the past year and then just now with the Petrel scouring the Lex wreckage, come into formerly unknown information about my dad. He died in the conflict when I was only a few months old so I never got to see or know him. Mom told me he had been on the Lexington and then shot down and killed and nothing else. I thought he had been shot down in the Battle of the Coral Sea but such is not the case. He survived the Lex sinking, was picked up by the Dobbin, a support ship, ans was later transferred to the Sara which is what brings me here. I got a lot of info from someone who had commented on the TBDs from the Lex and thought my dad could have flown in one of them, he was a gunner, and sure enough he did, actually two of them so that was cool. I learned of his journey on the Sara and how he was shot down, captured, and shot trying to escape. So while building my Lex I was researching the planes he flew in and the ship he finished the war in which brings me here. I picked up a Squadron at Sea copy of the Sara at a reduced price on Amazon, and was thinking of getting the Fry book, Saratoga cvIII an illustrated history. The price was a little more than I wanted to spend so checked with the local library. They didn't have a copy but did get one on an inter-library loan so I got to see and read it. I was disappointed. I had seen all the photos in it but it was the writing that threw me off. It seemed logically organized, each chapter dealing with the captains in order of their service. But when reading each chapter he seemed to be all over the place instead of the sequence with that particular captain.

I know others here will have that book and wondered if anyone else had experienced it as I did or is it just me?

James


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:25 pm 
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It's an important book but not a perfect one. It felt to me like Fry was taking many sources and melding them together, but not always in good, flowing ways. But I know of no other book that covers her historical narrative quite as well.

I'm glad to hear you've learned more about your Dad, as painful as it might be.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Interesting Photo that I have never seen of the Saratoga, Dated 9/19/44 from the Smithsonian Archives

Image

Matt

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Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Moved from CV-2 thread to CV-3 thread


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:54 pm 
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Gents,

I was wondering...if one wanted to do a 1/700 Saratoga at the time of the Battle of the Eastern Solomons in August 1942,assuming they already have the Model Monkey Saratoga 1942 bridge and 1942 funnel,would one be better off using:

1.) The MENG 1/700 Lexington late 1941/early 1942 kit?
or
2.) The Tamiya 1/700 Saratoga 1944 kit?
3.) The Trumpeter Lexington May 1942 kit?

All kits above have their pluses and minuses, but I removed the old Fujimi kit Saratoga kit from the running because of the flawed/inaccurate bow form as mentioned in one of this site's older reviews.

I assume the MENG and Trumpeter Lexington kits might be closer since each has less of an AA suite than the 1944 Saratoga.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:10 am 
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With the choices available, only the Tamiya '44 kit is viable without a major redo of the deck. (Even then, you will need a minor redo of the deck.) Lexington's widened forward deck was significantly differently shaped compared to Sara's. And the after end of Sara's deck was lengthened (and the round down changed) in '41, a mod Lex never got.

BTW, the old Fujimi kit - the whole hull form is wrong, not just the bow. Deck proportions are also off on that kit.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:21 am 
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Thanks for the reply and feedback, Dick J. Perhaps I might as well just consider building the Saratoga in 1944 instead of the 1942 possibility.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:15 pm 
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You would also have to add the two hull bulges to either Lexington kit. These are already on the Tamiya Sara hull.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:45 pm 
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Frank Fowler wrote:
You would also have to add the two hull bulges to either Lexington kit. These are already on the Tamiya Sara hull.


There was an article in Fine Scale Modeler magazine that covers a straight forward conversion of the older Fujimi 700 scale kit to the late war Saratoga with painting and details of the port of the starboard blister mods. The only non kit components appear to be the sheet styrene for constructing both blisters. If anyone is interested I will dig it out of my files and scan or snail mail a copy. Send me a PM


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Does anyone have insight into what the .50 caliber AA guns/mounts atop #2 and #3 turrets looked like around 1936?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:08 pm 
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something like this as they were water cooled not air cooled. https://www.alamy.com/1940s-man-marine- ... d0%26pl%3d


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:28 pm 
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Thanks. Would the naval mount just be a metal pedestal? Were they all single mounts or were there mounts sporting multiple .50 cals?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:56 am 
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metal pedestal & single mounts.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:21 am 
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This pic is from USS Ranger in 1935, but the single Browning mount looks something like this:

Image

This outfit makes them in 1/350:

http://www.3dmodelparts.com/1-350-50-ca ... nt-16-pcs/


Last edited by Aggie on Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:36 am 
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I went to Naval History & Heritage Command and started poking around photos... this pic is '33, but that sure does look like some kind of double Browning mount on the turret:

Image

Higher res here: https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 81656.html


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:20 pm 
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It is interesting, but during the mid-1930s (starting in about 1936) photos of USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) show NO MG's atop her 82 and 83 turrets. While USS SARATOGA (CV-3) appears to have a pair of 50-cal MGs atop those turrets starting in about 1934.

USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) in April 1934. I don't know what type of mount this is, but if I have to guess, it is an experimental multiple MG mount?

Image

USS SARATOGA (CV-3) in October 1932. The same mount without the canvas cover.

Image

USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) in October 1938. (a poorer 1936 image and a 1939 image shows the same lack of MGs)

Image

USS SARATOGA (CV-3) IN April 1934 (note same date as the USS LEXINGTON image above). This image appears to show the standard 50-cal MGs used in the last half of 1930s.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:08 pm 
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VMIalpha454 wrote:
Does anyone have insight into what the .50 caliber AA guns/mounts atop #2 and #3 turrets looked like around 1936?


Cap'n Price,
The Saratoga had only the two single pedestal-mounted water-cooled .50s on the new box platform on the No. 2 turret, that replaced the twin .50s single pedestal mount during the ship's late 1933 visit to Puget Sound. The No. 3 turret carried the twin .50s single pedestal mount upon top until late '35, but afterwards, no .50s were installed, like the forward turret's, until prior to the war. Also, by late '36, the Saratoga was wearing her first 'E' award on the funnel stack, that was awarded to the carrier during July '36.
If you're able to, catch a glimpse of the movie 'DIVE BOMBER', during the flick they have a shot taken from the number 2 turret looking down upon the flight deck, and a quick shot of the single water-cooled .50s on the gun mount (and also the ones mounted on the No. 1 turret that were installed later).
The single mounted pedestal looked similar to the ones on the Ranger's photo that Aggie posted, but the machine gun's barrels lacked the flash deflectors on the Saratoga's weapons.

Hope this helps, and Good Luck on the 'Ship of Happy Langings'!
Fellow Chattanoogain,
Michael,VA


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:50 pm 
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[quote="Rick E Davis"]It is interesting, but during the mid-1930s (starting in about 1936) photos of USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) show NO MG's atop her 82 and 83 turrets. While USS SARATOGA (CV-3) appears to have a pair of 50-cal MGs atop those turrets starting in about 1934.

USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) in April 1934. I don't know what type of mount this is, but if I have to guess, it is an experimental multiple MG mount?

Hey Rick,
The Army and Navy departments started experiments with Light A/A weapons in the late 1920s, that included the Colt (Browning) water-cooled .50-caliber machine guns. Not only were a single-mounted .50 were used, but also twin-,triple-, qual- and six-barrel mounted units were involved. And later prior to the war, twin-50s with a 37-mm cannon on a trolley were developed, along with a quad-.50s unit mounted on half tracks for A/A defense for ground troops, as well as the quad-1.1 'Chicago Piano' that we've seen on early WW2 vessels, including the Lex and Sara.
The Navy plan to add Light A/A weaponry to the two carriers during their late-years construction periods, by adding circular pivotal platforms upon the heavy gun mounts of Numbers 2 & 3. The Lexington received the platforms while she was in Drydock #3 at South Boston, before sailing on her maiden voyage, and the Saratoga had its installed at the Philly naval yard before its maiden trip to Newport.
The "twin-mounted, single-pedestal" .50-caliber weapons were not installed until both the Lex and Sara reached the West Coast, with Lex receiving hers during the ship's first visit to Naval Yard Puget Sound in late 1928. The Sara didn't have the weapons installed until the ship's second visit to Puget Sound in late '29, but neither carrier received a six-barrel A/A mount that been reportly installed. The Navy also were reportly to install some of these twin-barreled weaponry on some of it cruisers during the early '30s, but have only personally researched the Lexingtons' usage of the A/A batteries.
The carriers carried the weapons until late '33, when Sara visited NYPS and had her forward A/A on No. 2 removed and replaced with the 'box' platform with two single a pedestals mounted .50s as seen in the photos You posted, but retained the aft single pedestal twin-mounted .50s until the ship's visit at Bremerton in late '35, when it was removed. During the carriers' East Coast Cruise in mid-34 to Hampton Roads and New York City, photographs show these A/A units in place during that time period.
The Lexington kept her 'twin-barrel, single-pedestal' .50s units until a refit visit to NYPS in late '35, where they were removed, and the new A/A platforms were added to the ship, the 5th level deck on the funnel and the quarter-hull positions, where single pedestaled .50s were to be added. Not all positions had .50s mounted at this time, some of the quarter deck areas only had two MGs in place when the ship left the shipyard, but were added later when the weapons became available. Later the Lex would received the same box-deck platforms upon its 8-inch mounts as the Sara had, prior to the war.
There are several photographs of the "twin-mounted" .50s that were on the Lex and Sara during the weapons' usage. One photo of an overhead view of the single pedestal A/A unit is in the new Squadron At Sea 'USS Saratoga' by David Doyle on page 72. The photo is quoted as the unit being 'dismounted', but is actually fully assembled, with the two water-cooled MG barrels in place, with ammo drums attached to the .50s, the sighting bar mounted at the end of the barrels, as well as the small seats used by the two gunners, and the foot petals used for turning and aiming of the weapons mount. There are also photos of the weapon used during a Fleet Battle exercise capturing a firing exercise by the gunners with a Chief directing the operation standing behind the gunners on the No. 2 turret, with the .50-caliber ammo box that was installed on the aft top part of the turret.

HTH!
Michael, VA


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:49 pm 
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Michael,

That is a great history of the Light-AA armament on these two ships. I have scanned images of these two (during the 1930's "LEX" and "SARA" were probably the most photographed ships from the air by the USN), when I came across really nice views. Quite possibly due to the aircraft assigned to the ships afforded more opportunities. In the 80-G collection at NARA there literally must be 1,000+ photos of the pair. Many photos have dates, but whether those dates are accurate, is always questionable when dealing with 80-G photos. Little known is that the 80-G photo collection started out being BuAero photos. Other "Misc" photos were added during/after WWII. This should help in ID'ing an undated image.

I didn't post any crops of the 83 mount because it was harder to tell what was or wasn't mounted there in many images with most "quarter" views being taken from the forward aspect.


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