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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:57 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
That drawing is the source of Trumpeter's 1/200 scale funnel dimensions error. It's the one which (incorrectly) shows the aft funnel narrower (fore and aft direction) than the forward funnel.


It contains basically all errors possible and none of the corrections; it is most inaccurate.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:01 am 
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:thumbs_up_1: Very good analysis Cag! That's what's we need to do. Find the sources.

I tried the past few days to find more info on these, but apparently the UP weapon was rather short-lived within the Navy, I could hardly find any records at all. Only when you zoom out the relationship with other British AA rockets become apparent, but as these were Army weapons (the Z-Battery) their control systems were quite differently organised, although the functionality had to be similar as what you described. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Battery

I believe the salvo number of 12 rockets refers to one of those 3" land-based systems, in case of the shipboard UP 7" system with 20 rockets, one would rather expect salvos of five rockets each, or a large salvo of all 20 at once.

But indeed, we need to research further. I tried the IWM, but had no success so far.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:27 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
That drawing is the source of Trumpeter's 1/200 scale funnel dimensions error. It's the one which (incorrectly) shows the aft funnel narrower (fore and aft direction) than the forward funnel.


It contains basically all errors possible and none of the corrections; it is most inaccurate.

Trumpeter continues their practice of using the Polish 'Profile Morski' drawings that LOOK nice but are hopelessly badly researched...

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:56 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
That drawing is the source of Trumpeter's 1/200 scale funnel dimensions error. It's the one which (incorrectly) shows the aft funnel narrower (fore and aft direction) than the forward funnel.


It contains basically all errors possible and none of the corrections; it is most inaccurate.


Can you describe the errors on that drawing to me either here or in private message?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:03 am 
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Hi All,

Hi Evert-Jan, thank you, I agree, I dont know if you can recall seeing it but I'm sure there's a known IWM image of KGV's quarterdeck mount with a marine sat inside the control box with a headset on, his hands on the control wheel?

Hi Jamie, yes those are inaccurate and caused a few problems but on the bright side I guess at least it gave us a reasonable hull shape, where Trumpeter got Bismarck and Iowa from I'm not sure! Plus we mustn't forget your excellent drawings of Hood, the first to give her the grey lower hull!

Hi Maarten, thank you, I hoped a wee bit of logic was present in my post, but I did have to edit it! I've found a few National Archives UK listings but they're not digitised so it means a visit, here they are

AVIA 6/9459 UP tests 7 inch (ministry of aviation)
CAB 120/363 and 364 Development of UP and expenditure (cabinet office)
Adm 1/11680 disposal of UP mounts merchant ships (Admiralty)
Adm 1/23040 allocation of first 40 UP mounts (Admiralty)

I think the initial development was air ministry, then multi service use. If I remember correctly there were some situated in Tobruk for AA defence?

Maybe the image of the operator with a headset on is the clue? A sight used to confirm bearing etc and transmitted by voice to the mounts operator?

Only research will solve this one, and we may find all we need about the mount but not the sight! I'll keep looking as there must have been an operating manual handbook?

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:38 am 
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TZoli wrote:
Can you describe the errors on that drawing to me either here or in private message?


Just a quick 5-minute appraisal :smallsmile:

Sternboom (transverse one), no grid on the anchor hawsepipe, no plank nibbing/spurnwater drawn, location stanchions: not checked but missing stays for some (AOTS is fully accurate here, about 1/3 had a stay), mix of wrong winches around D-turret, missing aircraft frame on X-turret, wrong shape if aft 4" gun platform, flash suppressors on aft pompoms, shield config around aft pair of 4" guns wrong, ALL skylights wrong (no blast plates, only on foredeck), pompom director is.. well... not sure what that is, all 4"guns, aft pompom director should face forward, missing 4" RU lockers here and there, corticene outline not present on outer flanks of the upper deck, where it was present regular pattern, not stepped, admiral's barge wrong type, 35ft fast motor boat (left) wrong type, 35 ft fast motor boat (right) actually 50ft pinnace, 42ft barge fantasy, funnel outlines wrong, funnel interior walkways wrong, both portside 25ft motor boats wrong type, fwd pompoms flash suppressors (not same type as aft one, but type & flash suppressors are not related, type differences too small to matter), ports side 16ft motor boat should be dingy, missing skimming dish port, fwd UP launcher lockers not present, wrong HACS types, top DCT box (aft left) not present, copy/paste portholes with eyebrows where not were present, bridge splinter shields not 1941 layout (wrong on several decks), split bridge deck layout near air defence platform wrong, pompom directors bridge wrong type (and total fantasy should be Mk I), bridge aerial trunk position wrong or deck outline wrong, UP launcher position B-turret shield outline wrong, some steam winches wrong type, too many support rollers near capstan, degaussing cable does not follow shear line.

While some issues are relatively new (for this drawing), many are not and are far better drawn in the AOTS; this drawing is a large step backwards and due to its large number of errors 100% unreliable. Check out the official Hood website for a list of corrections for the Trumpeter kit.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:05 pm 
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I don't understand half you written XDXD


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 4:20 am 
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TZoli wrote:
I don't understand half you written XDXD

Hi TZoli,

EJFoeth made all the comments comma-separated, but unreadable as a block of text. I suggest you copy and paste it into Word or Excel and put each comment on a separate line, then check eack one for yourself until you are convinced of the fact. It requires some homework! EJ did so for fifteen years or more...

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Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:11 pm 
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Discussion of the salvage of PoW/Repulse wrecks has been moved here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=378221

Please post further discussion on that topic there, not here.

Thanks

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:43 pm 
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Hi,

Just looking for some quick clarification on Prince of Wales' final pom-pom fit. The one on Y turret is a quadruple not an octuple as often shown in the past? I only noticed this recently in photos.

The turret pom-poms fairly clearly look like they have shields, yes? What about the original 4 atop the hangar? Shields as well? Were these shields removable or permanent?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:23 am 
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The pompom on Y-turret is indeed a quad turret (Prince of Wales and for a while for King George V too). I'm not aware how & when the octuple pompom ended up on Y-turret; perhaps an error of a kit maker that persisted?

Attachment:
POW.jpg
POW.jpg [ 116.61 KiB | Viewed 38168 times ]


All pompoms were indeed shielded with two minor shields in front (by the looks of it) and two larger shields covering the rear quarter.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:46 am 
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Thanks! A bit annoying as I spotted this very late in my build and will now need to make some alterations :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:28 am 
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Another random question. On Prince of Wales, where exactly does the rigging that comes down from partway along the main wires (the ones that span between the masts) attach to at the back of the bridge structure / flag deck?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:30 am 
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It looks like there were at least a pair of wires that came down to the small tub on the port side


Attachments:
PoW handling 1941 April.jpg
PoW handling 1941 April.jpg [ 71.68 KiB | Viewed 37602 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:41 am 
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Pedantically, the wires are not part of the rigging, they are HF aerials.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:23 am 
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Hi All,

Hi Vlad, there were the main transmitting/receiving wires that were strung between the fore and main masts. From these additional wires came down into terminations in the tub as Martocticvs and tjstoneman say (also similar terminations on the aft structure).

There were also rigging lines, signal halyards, electrical terminations and secondary transmission and reception aerials that came to a box on the forward superstructure, and horizontal cables that ran from around the compass platform back to the signal horns on the forward face of the funnel.

It's a bit of a jumble and I'm still trying to figure out what went where etc.

Hope that helps a wee bit.

Just to add December 10th 1941 a wee remembrance to all those lost on this day on Prince of Wales, Repulse and those Japanese aircraft which were shot down. Let's hope the wrecks will be left in peace.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:48 am 
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The arrangements were also changed later (presumably not on PoW), with additional wires coming down from the ones strung between the masts, all taken to a rail on the back of the foremast below the fore top, and then down to various points below (including the tub I referred to earlier). Coming down from the foremast/(fore yard?) itself are numerous wires that lead to insulators (looks like 5 per side) fixed to the aft face of the compass platform splinter shielding, and then on down to points I can't see.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 11:33 am 
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Cag wrote:
Just to add December 10th 1941 a wee remembrance to all those lost on this day on Prince of Wales, Repulse and those Japanese aircraft which were shot down. Let's hope the wrecks will be left in peace.
Best wishes
Cag.

Unfortunately, regards the above now underlined, seemingly more like the wrecks have been left in pieces.

Not sure if you have seen either of the reports at the below links but the Chinese salvers apperently spent a whopping 84 days on Prince of Wales between Dec 22 and May 23! Not much peace in that time then, unfortunately.

See brief statement in 2023 TMO newsletter here - https://thisismast.org/mast-newsletter.html

Full report here - https://thisismast.org/maritime-observa ... ng-68.html (with charts on page 15 & 16 breaking down those 84 days into 'various dates / time over wreck' segments.

BTW, although Martin posted a link in an above post re somewhere other than this thread to dicuss any salvage related issues, the link is dead / doesn't work (and hence why I posted here).

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:32 pm 
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Thanks all, I was wondering what that tube was for but interesting that it's an endpoint for radio wires. I'll go with that. I'm not planning an exhaustive 100% rig on my ship but I do want to get the major bits right.

And while I do appreciate the pedantry (this stuff is important) I am aware of the difference between what is strictly "rigging" vs signal lines, radio aerials etc. but I thought in a modelling context it's acceptable to refer to riggng as the sum of all the wires just for brevity.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:53 am 
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A new memorial to HMS's Prince of Wales and Repulse was opened at Kuantan, Malaysia on 10th December 2023.

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/categ ... -of-wales/

The photo below comes from that article, with this stated about the anchor "The memorial includes an auxiliary anchor, believed to be from one of the ships, which was gifted to Malaysia by the UK, and displayed at the army museum in Port Dickson, Negeri Sembilan, before this".

Question, does that look like a reserve anchor from such a large ship?


Attachments:
Memorial opening Kuantan Malaysia 10-12-23.jpg
Memorial opening Kuantan Malaysia 10-12-23.jpg [ 247.92 KiB | Viewed 37217 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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