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Include three, twin 15-inch turrets as an option?
Yes 71%  71%  [ 114 ]
No 29%  29%  [ 47 ]
Total votes : 161
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:01 am 
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Thanks for the info, grey it is for scharnhorst


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:48 am 
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I was making good headway on my 350th Scharnhorst, then somehow lost the hangar. Yes, the whole, assembled & painted hangar. (Oh, it'll show up someday, I'm sure.) So, either order replacement sprues... or buy another kit for the hangar parts, and make a Gneisenau out of what's left. Not such a bad idea, really...

So, thinking of doing her (him?) up in Cerberus fit... I just finished reading through Stein Gildberg's excellent build thread and the back-posts on this one, and I have a few initial questions for this endeavor, if anyone can help:

1. Is there a good drawing reference for the big hangar? I see it's been asked before, but mostly in context of how the internal catapult was supposed to work. While such thorough information would be nice, I'd be fine with something where I can deduce enough to scratch-build it closed. The side and top views I've seen don't help much with understanding the cross-sectional shape or door details.

2. Did Gneisenau still have rangefinders on turret Anton? Having trouble spotting a definitive yes or no from photos.

3. How "clean" was her camouflage scheme? I see where Antonio at http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=15 notes that a badly-deteriorated light gray hull was completely re-painted dark gray just before the mission, and he shows the superstructure in an evenly-distributed mottle. German Naval Camouflage vol. 2 shows a far more chaotic mixture of random patches, mottling, and splotches. The hull is certainly cruddy during her drydock period at Brest... not that uncommon while the work is being done, with a fresh coat one that work is finished... but the author is right, it does still look very uneven in photos take during Cerberus. On the other hand, I think the superstructure looks more uniform that what is presented in that book's drawings. However, the photos are all very grainy and who knows what weather and lighting effects are at play. Anyone have any thoughts to offer?

Thanks,

Sean F.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:29 pm 
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If the date of the photo on page#36 of KM camo vol II is accurate, the rangefinders on Anton had been removed when Cerberus commenced. As far as the paint scheme, the representations in the same book are as good as anything else. The fun thing about these patterns is that you really will never have to explain your results. Just start with standard KM greys and imagine weathering and sloppy painters. I'm working on PE during this period and experimented with motteling over basic hull grey with patches of dark grey and a coat of fresh hull grey at the bow. If it doesn't look right you can keep messing it up. Have fun.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:12 pm 
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I was just reminded about the Classic Warships "German Battleships 1939-1945" book. It had slipped my mind last night. Looking through it, I see some additional photos of Gneisenau around the right time. Anton rangefinders definitely gone, per photo on page 39. Streaky cruddiness of the hull paint well in evidence close-up in photos on pages 38 and 39, further away on pages 40-41. Mottling concept visible in close-up of conning tower on page 36. Still nothing on the hangar,though.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:17 am 
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This drawing from Siegfried Breyer's "The German Battleship Gneisenau", albeit pretty crude, does show the hangar. It has a graphical scale and may be enough to model it.


Attachments:
Gneisenau enalrged hangar.from Breyer.cropped.small.jpg
Gneisenau enalrged hangar.from Breyer.cropped.small.jpg [ 198.06 KiB | Viewed 413 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:37 am 
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Steve, just sent him more detailed drawing if he didn't have them already which I don't think.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:24 pm 
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Thank you both for the help!

MM: I'd forgotten about that thin Breyer softback... pulled mine out of storage this evening.

I think this will be enough to do the trick... and in fact, now I think I'll pose it open!

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:26 pm 
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no problem.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:36 pm 
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Thanks, David!

Sean, from available references, this is the best I can make out of Gneisenau's enlarged 1942 hangar with any confidence. The rendering shows two views, one of the hangar with open doors and a cylinder representing the catapult pedestal which is inside the hangar, and the other view with closed doors. As you can see, it is very different than Scharnhorst's hangar. Scharnhorst, as you know, had a rooftop catapult and rooftop sliding doors. Gneisenau could launch aircraft from within the hangar.

Attachment:
Gneisenau Hangar 1942.a.jpg
Gneisenau Hangar 1942.a.jpg [ 125.17 KiB | Viewed 321 times ]

In addition to identifying and modeling features and details of the hangar, there is also a new, large, multi-level boxy structure built aft on top of the hangar. Some photos show a cylindrical tub on top (Cerberus), while other photos show just a splinter shield (wreck photos). The shape, size, position and footprint of this structure is very difficult to determine from photos. The structure does appear on the original builders' plans for the ship's planned 1943 reconstruction but not clearly (Breyer, 26-27 - see cropped, reduced image below). The aft end of the structure is probably flush with the hangar.

No references I have access to show the hangar interior, which plans show could hold two Arado aircraft, one on the catapult and a second stowed aft and above. Exactly how the second aircraft was stowed is a mystery. A third aircraft could be stowed on the roof, but not launched from there. The catapult and pedestal type and configuration are not discernible from available references. We could assume that is was identical to the type previously fit, and may have been the very same catapult, simply relocated to the hangar during hangar construction at Brest.

Rooftop details are unknown but rooftop tracks of some kind appear in the builder's plans, probably for an aircraft stowage cradle.

Hopefully better references will be made available and both the hangar and boxy structure can be modeled and detailed accurately for 3D-printing or scratch-building.

Any help is hugely appreciated.


Attachments:
Gneisenau 1942 Rebuild.a (2).jpg
Gneisenau 1942 Rebuild.a (2).jpg [ 197.1 KiB | Viewed 321 times ]

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On the ways:
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:35 am 
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Wow, Steve. That's some impressively quick rendering!

I would bet on it being the same catapult, just lowered from its previous position.

These things almost never end up looking like smooth sheet metal, so there's almost certainly more exterior surface detail to the real thing than what the drawings are showing. In addition to the rooftop Arado storage rails, it looks like there were also searchlight platforms on the aft sides of the hangar at the time of Cerberus - so some railings and ladders would be in order.
Regarding the interior detailing, I'd think a decent amount of overhead framing would be needed, given the need to span such a large opening and support the weight of the third Arado on the roof, and provide support for a probable gantry crane to move planes between the storage shelf and the catapult. Probably throw in a ladder or two for mechanics to get up to the shelf to work on the stowed aircraft, and some storage lockers in reasonable locations.
Unless someone comes up with that perfect photo, or truly authoritative drawing, I think there's little need to worry about it. Given the very crude paint patterns and grainy photos of Gneisenau from mid-41 until destruction, there's an awful lot that can't be proven. I don't generally like just making up details, but in this case I wouldn't feel too bad about just following the logic of it. (And what better way to bring that evidence to light, than to scratchbuild it wrong for all the world to see! It's sure to come crawling out of the woodwork a few weeks after it's too late to change it! :) )
Mounting all three aircraft and applying that Cerberus camo should keep the area busy enough to make the entire effect busy enough compensate for all the unknowns.
This is really getting me fired up to try it... Like I needed another project right now... :)

(Not important to building it in a model, but since I was thinking about the process of getting them in there... ugh, what a mess! Couldn't have been a very efficient process putting the Arados away!)

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:29 pm 
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I think I might just offer the hangar design as-is for 3D printing. Even though it is rather featureless, modelers might enjoy the challenge of "tricking it out".

Thoughts? Open doors?

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On the ways:
1/350 USS Saratoga CV-3 ('44)
1/350 USS Yorktown CV-10 ('45)
1/192 USS Missouri BB-63 ('45)
1/350 HMS Duke of York ('45)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:41 pm 
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Oh, wow... if you're game for making it, I'm probably game for buying one...Thing is, it is a pretty large part. Got any idea what the price might be in 1:350? At a certain point the level of detail vs. price breaks in favor of scratchbuilding.

Suggestions for adding value: There are a handful of details that can be ascertained with reasonable certainty.
Roller rails for the sliding doors would be good. And I suggest printing the doors as separate pieces (connected with runners to be removed later, to make them a single printed part, of course), That way, they can be posed in any configuration.
Several portholes along the curved roof and hangar sides. (comparing photos on page 33 of the Breyer softback book, I make out three along the curved roof: one directly below the box structure at the aft end, one near the funnel (as also seen in drawing 1 from page 32 and a third one about halfway between (aft of the tall door, directly below the tail of the aircraft in the middle picture on page 33) Drawing 1 on page 32 shows another porthole on the vertical face directly below the forward most roof hole, and the refit drawing on page 26 agrees (though I can't spot it in any of the photos.)
The ladder up the sides seen in the refit drawing on page 26 seems in good agreement with photos - the ladders come up the aft-most sliding doors and up the curved roof where they terminate at the flat spot.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Hi Sean,

First iteration is done, with doors closed. I missed the portholes but will add them. I only see the four at the forward end of the hangar, in drawings and photos. Under magnification, the other dark spots along the top of the curved section look like shadows for some kind of indistinct external features rather than portholes. The wreck photos in Steve Wiper's book (page 71) don't show any other portholes along the top of the curved roof. I'll just add those that appear clearly as portholes in the drawings.

I'm afraid that the ladders can't be 3D-printed. Photo-etch remains the best material for ladders in 1/350 scale. The roller rails, while certainly there, can't be seen well enough in any of my references to design them. Those details will have to left to the modeler.

Doors would have to be printed at least 0.8mm thick to survive cleaning, and Shapeways may want them even thicker because of their size, all very much over-scale, making them difficult to position properly but perhaps acceptable.


Attachments:
1-350 Gneisenau Hangar (1942).jpg
1-350 Gneisenau Hangar (1942).jpg [ 29.1 KiB | Viewed 135 times ]

_________________
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-Steve Larsen
Catalog: https://modelmonkey.wixsite.com/modelmonkey

On the ways:
1/350 USS Saratoga CV-3 ('44)
1/350 USS Yorktown CV-10 ('45)
1/192 USS Missouri BB-63 ('45)
1/350 HMS Duke of York ('45)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Portholes added.

Shapeways automated checks did show that the doors, if offered separately, would have to be cartoonishly thick. I'm afraid they will have to remain integrated.

Here's the 1942 open door design in 1/350:

Attachment:
1-350 Gneisenau Hangar (1942) open doors.jpg
1-350 Gneisenau Hangar (1942) open doors.jpg [ 30.12 KiB | Viewed 131 times ]


Link: http://shpws.me/OLUS

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.

-Steve Larsen
Catalog: https://modelmonkey.wixsite.com/modelmonkey

On the ways:
1/350 USS Saratoga CV-3 ('44)
1/350 USS Yorktown CV-10 ('45)
1/192 USS Missouri BB-63 ('45)
1/350 HMS Duke of York ('45)


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