The Ship Model Forum

Gentleman, this thread is exactly what the doctor ordered for me.
For the long time I had this itch to design a card mode of one of Borodinos.
So I want to start now as I got these nice drawings Kronma supplied.
But I want to do Slava as of 1914-17 or so, just because I prefer grey scheme for printing reasons.
I understand that there are some differences between drawings (was said they represent Oriol) and Slava. Some of them I see (masts, anchor beds, looks like stern is a bit different). If the great 1:100 model that pictures were posted here is correct, that will be a good reference I guess. If any of you guys have some suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated.

Fortunately, about this ship least questions.
Its photos and drawings were kept many.
Recently the book about SLAVA has been published. The author - Sergey E. Vinogradov.
Here links and some pages from this book.

http://tsushima.org.ru/morkamp/new.htm

Wow, great - thanks a lot.
Another question - Navarin has nice drawings of Tsesarevitch - can details like guns, boats, searchlight etc from these drawings be used for Slava?

Unfortunately, I cannot ask the lady to remove a hat...
But I can try to find other photo:





Interesting question...
I shall try to pick up materials for the answer.

What means "etc"?
Each detail is necessary for considering separately:
Light guns - Yes, identical on SLAVA and on TCESAREVITCH.
The searchlights - Yes, the same.
All SAILING (not steam) boats - Yes, identical.
Steam boats - No, different.

Here this details (hawser reel) on other battleship - ANDREI PERVOZVANNY.
ATTENTION! It's not the Borodino-type ship!

Kronma - "ect" means (more or less) "and so on"

cerberusjf - sorry, my mistake. The red overlay is indeed Aleksander III . Should have counted those portholes!

Roman1 - It is more complicated than that I am affraid... Drawings supplyed by Kronman are of Orel and can't be used to build Slava without MAJOR modifications. Keep also in mind that Slava of 1905 was different to Slava of 1914 and Slava of 1914 was different to Slava of 1917. Model you see in photos provided by both cerberusjf and Kronma are of Slava circa 1905-10. So if you set your heart on large scale model of Slava from WWI period it might be a good idea to start with the book recommended by Kronma.

Thanks, I know it.
I wished to tell, that IMHO, it is better to speak about each detail separately and particularly, instead of "and so on".

I'm not sure if you know already, but just in case, for Borodino the railings for the captain's walk did not follow the curve of the ship to the end, instead they turned inboard after the 5th segment,

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=1zbymt1fk1y&thumb=4
and this photo of Borodino

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=f3231zujfoo&thumb=4

I. Alexander captain's walk railings seem to make a right angle rather than a bend at at launch but in later photographs has an extra "bit" that goes to the end of the walkway, dipping down at the forward 75mm gun. The Suvorov seems to be the same as I Alexander according to the builder's drawing
eg

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=brcjq5zdaj9&thumb=4

Also note the position of the stern door

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=c1mb1cjw9g1&thumb=4

Kronma - I guess my question was somewhat too general. But maybe a general question is in order here - to what extent, the details on a ship built in France would differ from ships built in Russia.
Dariusz - agree. I just need to find this book somewhere here in US.
But I'll start the hull anyway

Sorry Kronma, a bit of misunderstanding on my part and I agree about treating each detail separately.

Roman1 - to the very large extend I am affraid. Borodinos were only influenced by Tsesarevich, they weren't an attempt to copy it.

Forgive, whether can someone answer my question about funnels?

http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/vie ... 419#184419

Rurik_II, hi,

Thanks for opinion on Taras' book on Russo-Japanese war. Especially valuable as you are from Belorussia as is the author. I agree that it is full plagiarism with two exceptions: 1) if one can differenciate texts written by TARAS (may be this is an abbreviation) and those which he/they just compiled from other books then the book will make a good summary of preliminary info on R-J war 1905 and ships 2) artist paintings of ships on A4 format are excellent as well as the photos (fortunately Taras did not make any "improvements" in them).

Yevgeniy
P.S. Sorry for late answer - I did not pursue this thread for a while. I decided to write in English so that the participants can understand. Spacibo.

Dimitri Malkov's drawings cross-referencing with photographs and drawings.
According to builders drawings of Suvorov funnels of this ship were almost as high as the mast's lower yard (photographs confirm this as well). I haven't had a chance to see original drawings of Borodino's side view (or Orel's for that matter) but examining photographs of this ship seems to show that her funnels didn't reach that high and that Malkov was correct.

Assessing Borodino's http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n96/ ... ino04a.jpg and Aleks.III's http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n96/ ... rerIII.jpg funnels height. This is just a relatively rough sketch to explain my methode but try it for yourself and see what results you will get.
Of course if you can prove me wrong I will be happy to admit my mistake

Malkov's website: http://www.battleships.ru/Our_poducts.htm

I think Darius is right, looking at this photo (left-right, K Suvorov (?), I Alexander III, Borodino), Borodino's funnels look lower compared to the yards than Alexander's, especially if you ignore the funnel caps. It looks to me to be consistent in all the photos I've checked. Even if you ignore the yard, they look a little shorter, though it's more difficult to see. They also look a little thinner to my eyes, but I think they're bginning to cross ..

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3nnhal0mvsg&thumb=6

I have checked Malkov's side view drawings of Aleks.III against builders drawings of this ship and forward funnel heights in both drawings match pretty closely. Malkov's Aleks.III funnel is actually 1.1mm too short when compared with builders drawings but, considering photocopying distortions of both drawings, that's not bad at all.

This is just a thought, but it looks to me like Orel's, Suvorov's & Aleks.III's funnels might have been taller by the added height of a funnel base which projected above the conning tower platform and was absent in Borodino....

I had a go at plotting lines on photographs and at a rough guess the differences are pretty small. Borodino's funnels seem to be marginally smaller than the other three if you include the cap, but only marginally, possibly about 4 ft and I have no idea what the error margin would be, pretty big for my work I imagine. Does anyone else want to have a go?

Here are a few of the attempts..

Borodino

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=7opmjrixn2x&thumb=4

and again

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=fmxwaqmbtml&thumb=6

Suvorov

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=8wzmbt23i1g&thumb=4

and Orel

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=fpiexcbnhay&thumb=4

I Alexander

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=85mnzy9ycqf&thumb=6

The difference in height (if I haven't screwed up) could be due to Borodino not having square bases, I have no idea but it seems reasonable. I wonder if there's a link in the fact that Borodino had funnel caps and the rest don't?

I think the slimness I thought I saw is only down to the steam pipes, the shorter black top and narrowing at the cap, now I have to uncross my eyes..

Unfortunately none of this tells us the absolute height of the funnels, it's all pretty much estimates.. and as Borodino doesn't have the square bases, the height'll have to be measured from thetop of the deckhouse or perhaps the top of the ship side.

The methode I used is a rough approximate and not every photo is good enough to establish common points to draw the line through. I also agree that diffrerence in height doesn't appear to be much but I am still of an opinion that it's there. Having original drawings of Borodino's side view to cross-reference would have been a great help but alas.....

The method is a time-honoured one and done well it can give useful results, I'm just not very good at it. Some original plans would be a big help.

I think Borodino's funnels are smaller too, but I'm surprised how little there appears to be in it. I was prepared for a much bigger difference. Maybe the caps give me the illusion that they're shorter than they are, or I'vegone a bit haywire wih the lines..

Accurate establishing of the points on the funnels through which the line will go is the problem. One milimeter up or down (or to the left or right) on the front and rear funnel makes a big difference as to where will the line dissect the mast. And majority of the photos aren't of high enough resolution to help the matters either. I will have to try to establish perspective lines on a close up photo of Borodino's main bridge and see where will that get me.... In meantime you might try something different: draw the line connecting midpoints of lower yards on both masts and see the results you will get. Those points seems to be easier to establish and you don't have to worry about Borodino funnel caps.