The Ship Model Forum

The pressure venting up destroyed the integrity of the stack at the base and it toppled forward against the superstructure. One of the reasons you can't really see it in the wreck afterwards is because it also rotated as it fell. If you look at this photo you can see the machine gun platform part of the stack aft of the tripod legs -from the bottom and front/rear.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

I remember once seeing a good close-up photo (not zoomed-in detail, just that it was the focal point of the picture and wasn't just some item way in the background of a wider shot) of the Arizona's stack after it was pulled out of the water in the aftermath of the attack. It was pretty much in one piece and it was upright, either sitting on a barge or hanging from a crane (prior to being loaded on a barge). I can't remember where I saw this photo, and I don't have my books accessible at the moment (I don't think it was in any of them, anyway). It may have been here in this thread back before the hacking incident wiped everything out.

- Sean F.

99% sure you're thinking of the removal of her fighting top. Her stack was too damaged to be upright, it was never in the water, and it would be a lot easier to just cut it up than to get the crane and move something that was so structurally compromised.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

For those with the Stillwell book, please turn to page 247. Can I see the structure that was below the machine-gun platform originally on the port side of the stack AND some of the stack sheeting itself?

Timm

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Timm Smith
Learn something new about the ship or your job every day. Ignorance is not bliss aboard a warship in wartime. Ignorance could cost the life of yourself, a shipmate, or the loss of the ship.
- Personal Information Booklet CV- 38

That photo is duplicated on Navsource here. Between the starboard tripod mast and the starboard crane is the remnants of the stack. The structure in view here is (most prominently) the underside of the stack .50 cal platform / gun tub (previously the searchlight platform). The black hole beneath it is the opening on the side of the structure underneath it, just labelled "operating platform" on Page 5 of her Booklet of General Plans.

Other views of the stack remnants on Navsource are this one underneath the forward most crane hook. It looks to me like we're seeing the port side .50 cal gun tub in all of these as the tube that's lying horizontally above the deck is part of her incinerator stack. I think the stack twisted about 90 degrees in the explosion or as it fell and that wrenched the incinerator stack around to where it shows in this photo.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013900h.jpg
Look directly behind the searchlight and you can see the gun tub that was on the side of the stack.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Here's another look at it.

Tracy and Jeff,

Thanks so much for supplying information to answer my question.



That incinerator stack lying horizontal is one of the pieces that I looked at many times, not realizing what it was. I was studying that whole incinerator apparatus and have already started to duplicate it on my 1:700 ship. Page 204 in the Stillwell book shows this. Comparing to the pic Tracy linked to, the flange at the aft end of that pipe attached to the y-pipe close to the base of the stack.

Timm

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Timm Smith
Learn something new about the ship or your job every day. Ignorance is not bliss aboard a warship in wartime. Ignorance could cost the life of yourself, a shipmate, or the loss of the ship.
- Personal Information Booklet CV- 38

Two questions, I hope they're not repeats of previous discussion...

1. Weren't there navigation lights in place in 1941?
There is a famous close up in Stillwell's book, among other places, that indicates a port side light bracket on the wrecked fore structure. But, as far as I know, the popular model kits of the Arizona don't include them. (I didn't pick up on it when I built my 1/350 rendition, so it doesn't have them.)

2. Was the twin-barreled saluting gun removed by November 1941?

TIA

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http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/

Yes, all over the place. If you're referring to the port and starboard running lights on the bridge only, then the port one is visible in the wreck on her Navsource Page in this picture. The top drawing on my "Running Lights page is of Arizona, and while it's used to illustrate her status at the start of salvage it also lists all of her navigation lights, should you want to replicate them.



Removed and replaced by a single-gun unit that is visible in the same photo above. It's hard to pick out if you don't know what you're looking for, but it's essentially the tube you see the end of in the back of the gun tub

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Thanks for the quick reply. Your comments about the lights confirmed what I was thinking.
Thanks for posting that picture again.
I do see what I have always thought were two gun barrels in this photo--one in each of its respective mount positions. But I don't see that "tube" you're referring to. May not matter, since your comment reminded me there is a photo of such a gun elsewhere in this massive thread.
Cheers.

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http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... uck-Bauer/

Got a phone call last night; USS Arizona survivor Joe Langdell died early Wednesday morning at 100 yrs old. He was an ensign at the time of the attack at Pearl Harbor, making him the last officer from the Arizona.

He was ashore and watched the Arizona explode and sink. His battle station was the #2 14" gun magazine, which was "ground zero" for the fatal hit and explosion. He once told me if he had made it to his battle station, he'd have been a "dead pigeon."

Joe was very lively and animated up until 2 years ago when dementia set in. I will miss him.

There are now eight remaining.

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"If at first you don't succeed, switch to power tools." --Red Green

Gents, I've been through all 82 pages of this thread and learned a helluva lot. Many thanks to all who've contributed.
Now I'm starting my 1/700th Dragon AZ, I find I seemed to have missed something; but I don't have the heart to go through the whole thread again

For those who buy into the 5-S scheme: what color were the steel decks? On Don Preul's great model at PH, the horizontal surfaces appear to be 5-S as well as the verticals; rather than one gray or another. Can that be?

TIA

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Harold

Wood decks were wood, Steel decks are still a little controversial.

There's the possibility that the superstructure decks were partially linoleum. I've gone looking at NARA and nothing supporting this notion has turned up, however this photo of Idaho seems to suggest its use (note the color of the deck the sailors are clustered on) in the year leading up to the attack.

The original Measure 1 called for metal decks to be painted the same 5-D Dark Gray as the vertical surfaces, so it could logically be assumed that they would paint the metal decks 5-S Sea Blue if they modified Measure 1. Inasmuch as no proof of this has been located (the closest we have at this point is an experiment on USS Tucker DD-374 that refers to Measure 1 modified), all you have is guesswork.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Once again, it seems there's not much about Arizona's colors on 12/7/41 that isn't controversial

Cheers Tracy; much appreciated.

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Harold

Well, by controversial I didn't mean flame wars like we had nearly a decade ago. Just... not definite and different opinions.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Well, I've been meaning to ask survivor Lonnie Cook if it was the steel decks he meant that he says he painted in the newer shade. This could shed some light on the decks.

He told me of being part of the painting in the newer, lighter shade, and that he and his buddies couldn't go on liberty until they'd finished their assigned area. So, he said they just poured the paint right out of the bucket and spread it with mops in a hurry so they could go. The next day, apparently the area was hosed off, and since the paint had dried unevenly due to the mop-slopping, many globs of not-quite-dried paint washed away leaving the original darker color exposed in several areas...resulting in a chewing out of epic proportions!

He really gives a good laugh at that story, although I'm sure he wasn't laughing at the time....but if true it likely supports the 5S on the steel decks theory.

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"If at first you don't succeed, switch to power tools." --Red Green

Is it known whether Arizona's aircraft were aboard at the time of the Japanese attack?
I've read that when aircraft carriers called at Pearl, at least some of their a/c would be flown off to land on Ford Island for maintenance while the ship was in port.
Was this common practice for battleships and cruisers too?
TIA

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Harold

Yes, hers were ashore. It was a common practice to enable maintenance, etc..

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Makes sense; thanks, Tracy.

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Harold

So now that we have the definitive answer as far as what color Arizona was painted om Dec 7 '41 , I'm wondering... whatever the color was, were the ship's boats (hulls) painted the same color (as the vertical surfaces) as the ship?

Timm

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Timm Smith
Learn something new about the ship or your job every day. Ignorance is not bliss aboard a warship in wartime. Ignorance could cost the life of yourself, a shipmate, or the loss of the ship.
- Personal Information Booklet CV- 38