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Chuck Bauer
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:47 pm 
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Yes, the ship's plans I have seen (may have come from Tracy) show a barn-style weather arrow on the roof of the forward fighting top. That same view shows this little house in place, albeit with nothing on top of it. So that would make sense that it got moved, plus its shape changed to be more like the one that was on Repulse.

The fact that the little house is in place, with no radar stub mast up above, would seem to indicate that the little house had nothing to do with "radar", as the NavSource caption suggests. Is it possible that the little house was an air defense station that relied on people looking through those windows as its "eyes"?

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Tracy White
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:26 pm 
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I can't remember if I've posted this and I'm too tired to go looking, but since we're in the vicinity, I figure now's a decent time. From a previous NARA trip....

Quote:
August 27, 1941.

1. It is requested that an alteration be approved to install two additional doors to the Pilot House one on each side as shown in the enclosure (A). The proposed doors to be made of metal of the sliding type, installed on the outside of the bulkhead.

2. The reason for requesting this alteration is evident from the enclosure (A). There is at present a walk way around the pilot house. Access to this walk way is through the doors at the after end of the pilot house. (A-A) The officer of the deck's station is at B. The ship control party consisting of 16 officers and men are stationed in the pilot house, and should the O.O.D. wish to get out on the walkway he must pass through the whole length of the pilot house, against the obstruction of the permanent equipment and the personnel. This tends to restrict the O.O.D. to the very small space just abaft the pelorus stand at 3. From this point he can not see the forecastle, his range of vision aft is obstructed, and he can not see the side of the ship. With the doors installed as proposed he would be free to step out on the walkway without passing any of the ship control party, easily and quickly, and would have a greatly increased range of vision.


Attachments:
File comment: BRidge layout via proposed sliding doors
1941-8-27 Pilot House Door Alteration 02.jpg
1941-8-27 Pilot House Door Alteration 02.jpg [ 129.75 KiB | Viewed 2429 times ]

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Chuck Bauer
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:04 pm 
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Thanks for posting this Tracy. I think they did a really good job of explaining why the change was needed.

This drawing is interesting to me for a far different reason, as well...
I like this drawing because it shows the position of the pelorus--inside the pilot house. There is a famous photo of the forward superstructure from the portside after the attack. The one with the front collapsed and the tower tilted forward. I have seen this photo with many different captions. One of them states that the pelorus is visible in the photo. But it couldn't be based upon this diagram. The pelorus would have been crushed amidst the collapsed decks just to the left of where the photo ends.
Even now you can go to NavSource and see the picture posted twice, with two different captions. One caption says it is a photo of "sunken wreckage", the other calls it "wreckage of the stern tripod mast."
About a year ago I sent them a message about it, but nothing ever happened. No matter---those that know what it is, know what it is.
Incidentally, that photo shows the little house intact with its weathervane still in place and pointing forward. Come to think of it, I've never seen it pointing in any other direction. Hmmm.

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Steve Sobieralski
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:32 pm 
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There were also peloruses (pelori?) on the bridge wings immediately below the Mk19 directors. That may have been what the caption of the post-attack photo was referring to.

Pennsylvania had doors in the locations proposed for Arizona, so there should have been plenty of experience with the layout. Her bridge did not have the surrounding platform that Arizona's did and these doors opened onto a platform that lead forward to the top of the conning tower, which was one level higher than her sister.

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Chuck Bauer
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:28 pm 
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Oops, I forgot about those.
BTW, here is the photo. I can't find a pelorus anywhere.


Attachments:
013939 - Copy.jpg
013939 - Copy.jpg [ 105.63 KiB | Viewed 2344 times ]

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Tracy White
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:02 pm 
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They're hidden by the splinter shields since the vantage point is effectively a couple of levels below that platform level. Unfortunately all of the photos i know about off the top of my head obscure them either with the splinter shield or the director platform above.

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Chuck Bauer
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:46 pm 
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Thanks for the reply, it puts me at ease about that troublesome caption.
By the way, the 1/200 Arizona kit does include the wing peloruses (pelori?).
Cheers.

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JohnD
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:32 am 
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Hi guys, I visited a not too local hobby store today and they had a 1/200 scale Arizona on the shelf, it was labelled as a Trumpeter model on the side of the box, but the front was another brand, MCM?,
I'm not sure of the brand. The guy in the shop did not know much about it, but said he thought it was for radio control.
Maybe that is why they were asking for $850.00!!! for the thing. ( I paid $243.00 for the Trumpeter kit a few years ago )
It is still on their shelf.
John
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GaryJinNC
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:57 pm 
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Having noted that ARIZONA had P&S Mk. 49 director platforms for the 1.1" quad mounts attached to the superstructure, was there a similar pair of platforms for the aft 1.1" mounts? I have not been able to locate such platforms in either photos or on Don Preul's model. Were the forward and aft 1.1" quad mounts controlled by a single Mk. 49 director on each side?

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Timmy C
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:02 pm 
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JohnD wrote:
Hi guys, I visited a not too local hobby store today and they had a 1/200 scale Arizona on the shelf, it was labelled as a Trumpeter model on the side of the box, but the front was another brand, MCM?,
I'm not sure of the brand. The guy in the shop did not know much about it, but said he thought it was for radio control.
Maybe that is why they were asking for $850.00!!! for the thing. ( I paid $243.00 for the Trumpeter kit a few years ago )
It is still on their shelf.
John


Maybe MHM/Minihobby Models? They're Trumpeter's "cheap" brand, dedicated to selling knockoffs of other companies' kits or motorized versions of Trumpeter's own kits. Unusual that it'll come with enough additions to be charged so much more, though.

Another possibility may be MRC, or Model Rectifier Corp, which used the Gallery brand to commission the 1/350 LHD kits from Trumpeter.

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Tracy White
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:12 pm 
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GaryJinNC wrote:
Having noted that ARIZONA had P&S Mk. 49 director platforms for the 1.1" quad mounts attached to the superstructure, was there a similar pair of platforms for the aft 1.1" mounts?


Yes, they were inboard and slightly forward of the empty aft tubs. Their placement is shown on Sheet 3 of her Booklet of General Plans. It was a single pedestal with a platform on top, but we don't know the precise height. Pennsylvania had Mk 49s for a bit and this picture on her Navsource page (marked "5") is what I would use as a template until official plans are located (if ever?).

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GaryJinNC
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:28 am 
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Thanks, Tracy. I checked the Don Pruel model and there is a metal disc on the deck beside the aft gun tubs which suggest that the pedestal and director platform would be installed there. This is consistent with the General Plans and the PENNSYLVANIA photograph.

While the superstructure platforms were there on December 7, the aft ones do not appear to be there. Another question answered.
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Jon C Ryckert
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:13 pm 
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The pedestals are there or were still there in 2004 when I last went to the memorial.
Attachment:
arizona_memorial_014.jpg
arizona_memorial_014.jpg [ 36.87 KiB | Viewed 2827 times ]
In this picture taken then, you can see the gun tub in the lower left. The directors pedestal in the middle and I believe is the remains of the starboard boat cranes foundation on the right. It appears that the pedestal is at the same height as the top of the splinter shield of the gun tub.
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MatthewB
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:52 pm 
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Just a quick question...

I read somewhere that the AZ was painted in Ms 11 just before the Pearl Harbor Attack (12/7/41).

Is that true?

That would have been one pretty ship.

MB

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Timmy C
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:41 am 
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Matthew, Arizona's colour on Dec 7 and the days leading up to that is literally the single most contentious naval camouflage topic on the internet. It is thoroughly discussed, with both sides for and against, in this thread. Please go through it and come to your own conclusions as to whether she was in 5-S Sea Blue or 5-D Dark Grey for the vertical surfaces up to the 5-L Light Grey of her spotting tops.

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davidwaples
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:59 am 
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Not to mention a combination as reported by her crew who said they were in the process of painting her.
Dave
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Jeff Sharp
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:05 pm 
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Jon C Ryckert wrote:
The pedestals are there or were still there in 2004 when I last went to the memorial.
Attachment:
arizona_memorial_014.jpg
In this picture taken then, you can see the gun tub in the lower left. The directors pedestal in the middle and I believe is the remains of the starboard boat cranes foundation on the right. It appears that the pedestal is at the same height as the top of the splinter shield of the gun tub.


Here is some video footage of the same director platform.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUbzWIRc90U
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Andrew D BB39 Sec
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:38 pm 
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Chuck Bauer wrote:
New subject, please:

Does anybody know what that little house is up on the top of Arizona's forward superstructure? It has windows and what might be an RDF directional antenna mounted on its roof.


Hey folks,

I haven't been in here in a while and just found this discussion of the little houselike structure with the barnlike weather vane on top. Some time ago I actually did ask Don Stratton and Lauren Bruner about that very thing, since that was right next to their battle station (portside AA director) and would have gone right past it every time they went topside.

Their answer? "That was the plothouse."

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Paul Peterson
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:22 am 
I was looking at the 1/700 scale 5-38 open mounts offered by 3D Model Parts. There are three offerings:

5-INCH-38 PEDESTAL MOUNT DUAL PURPOSE GUNS - MK 21/MK 24
5-INCH-38 SINGLE OPEN MOUNT DUAL PURPOSE GUNS - NO SHIELD/SKIRT
5-INCH-38 SINGLE OPEN MOUNT DUAL PURPOSE GUNS - WITH SKIRT

Which one is most appropriate for the USS Arizona?
What's the difference between the first two?
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JCRAY
 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:22 pm 
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5" 25 Cal would be more accurate. The casement guns were 5" 51 Cal.
hth! john
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