The Ship Model Forum

If one wanted to model the late '41 Pennsylvania instead of the Arizona with Trump's 1/200 kit, what would be the primary differences between the two? I know that the Pennsylvania received a two-tier armored conning tower (due to her designation as flagship) during her '29 - '31 reconstruction. Anything else outside the hull?

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qui tacet consentit

There is a pic on Navsource of Penn during the March 1942 refit that shows that the aft portion of the torpedoe blisters is not as long as it is on Arizona. Where Arizona's blister ends at frame 134, Penn's blister sharply angles back to the hull from frame 126ish to 128. I could be wrong but I don't feel that that modification was done between Dec 7 and the dates of the photo's on Navsource. Maybe someone with more knowledge could fill in the gaps on other issues for you. Hope this helped. Jon

Another obvious difference, well discussed in At 'Em Arizona in CASF/Battleships, is the Aviation Fuel Line. If you didn't know, the Aviation Fuel Tanks were mounted in the bow of each ship, with a line running toward the stern where the planes were located. These lines ran on the outside of the upper hull back to a Fueling Station mounted at the top of the hull near to the Rear Catapult. The Arizona had her line on the port side, but Pennsylvania had her's on the starboard side. Plus the Pennsylvania had a second Fueling Station for the turret catapult mounted at the top of the hull next to the #3 Turret. There are some good pics referenced in At 'Em Arizona, on the last couple of pages, showing these Fueling Stations. There is another good pic of the Aft Fueling Station on the Pennsylvania in the following thread. It is in the second pic, just above and to the right of the circled object. The small triangle fitting with two holes in it at the top edge of the hull, with the pipe coming up to it from below. That pipe is the fuel line.
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62870

If I'm reading this right, then it wouldn't be too difficult to make some modifications to the Trumpeter kit to replicate Pennsylvania instead? The torpedo blister location looks to be the hardest part.

I've been working on a 1:350 Pennsy in late '41 fit, so I've had my head in this for a while now. A few other items of note, aside from the conning tower (note also the 24" searchlight right in front of it), avgas line, and aft end of the bulges already mentioned:

Pennsylvania did get her radar installed before the attack. It's nigh-impossible to see in most photos, but on the Still Motion photo CD it's visible in two shots (including the bow-on shot with the wrecked destroyers ahead - it's a clearer shot on this CD that most of the versions I've seen) Also, in these photos it's clear that Pennsy did have cage yardarms like Arizona and Nevada.

Pennsylvania did have 3" guns mounted in the tubs meant to receive 1.1" quads. There are repeated references to her 3" and 5" AA guns in the after-action report following the attack. In the Feb. 42 refit shots, the aft 1.1" tubs are raised up on towers and not down on the wood deck just aft of the deck step-down like on Arizona on Dec. 7. However. they look structurally similar to other features added during the refit around the funnel, so I suspect these towers may have been built and the tubs moved up there during the refit and were probably on the deck during the attack. If anyone knows more, please chime in.

The vents between turret #3 and the aft tripod were square in cross section on Pennsylvania, not round like on the Arizona. They appear to be three vents, straight across the deck, with the center one goosenecked to get out from under the turret overhang. There is no projector booth on the port-side vent like on Arizona.

Shields were built over the 5:/25 AA guns on Pennsylvania during the refit, and were not present during the attack. Pennsylvania's 5"/25s were just as exposed as Arizona's.

Pennsylvania should have her forward turret tops white and turret #4 blue for the last few months leading up to the attack. From the look of the photos, I think her turret top colors were inset by a foot or two from the extreme edge (that is, a dark border around the white or blue) I think she was still in 5D by the time of the attack, as she looks awfully dark in all those post-attack shots. Main deck looks to be bare wood.

I'm sure I'll suddenly remember something else just after I log out. I hope this helps for now, though.

- Sean F.

I believe the shape of the bridge was different between Pennsy and Arizona. IIRC the Pennsy did not have a walkway solid bulwark in front of the bridge windows. and the shape of the bridge shape was different.

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Pessimists see the world as it truly is...
Optimists change the world.

I believe there are other Arizona - Pennsylvania comparisons in the At 'Em Arizona thread. I don't think there is a separate thread for the Pennsylvania, but I could be wrong. I think there are build threads for Pennsylvania, In Progress and Finished, but I don't know if any of them are pre-1942. The thread for the Pennsylvania Ship-of-the-Line doesn't count! Check them out!

Lots of good photos of Pennsylvania at Mare Island in Feb. '42 here:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/38g.htm

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Steve Sobieralski
Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

I merged the Arizona v Pennsylvania thread here, since there was some good information that should be saved in those posts.

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Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Might not be the right thread, but since theres no main Pennsylvania dedicated thread, Ill ask here.

Was there a reason Pennsylvania did not recieve MS 32 during '44-early '45? I found it odd that it didnt, yet most other battleships did. I thought it'd look cool to paint, but since it never happened, im out of luck.

Maybe Ill convert to a '44 Nevada, that wont be hard, right?

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"Also we will never see a 1/350 late war Enterprise from Dragon due to a paralyzing fear of success...." - Heavy Melder

Lots of unfinished model ships + attention issues = A busy slipway where nothing gets done!

There are Pennsylvania questions in here, so it's probably the right place.

A pattern was drawn up for her - not sure why she never painted into it, perhaps the Kamikaze threat? Texas and Arkansas were painted up dazzle, but quickly repainted into Ms21. A friend of mine has also noted that in some divisions, one ship would be dazzle, one would be Ms 22 and one would be Ms 21. Not sure what division she was in at this time and if this was a factor.

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Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

According to Alan Chesley's drawings of Pennsylvania the angle of the tripod legs was apparently diiferent on the two ships. The Pennsylvania's legs were angled at approximately 12 degrees from the vertical (in orthographic projection, not actually) while the Arizona's were angled at approximately 19 degrees. As a result the Pennsylvania's mast legs penetrated the deck aft of where the Arizona's did.

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Steve Sobieralski
Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

Geez guys, this isn't making it any easier for folks wanting to kitbash one of the Arizona kits into a Pennsylvania.

Simply put a "38" on the bow and 99% of the population won't know the difference

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Tell me about it. Makes me glad I'm not further along in my 1:350 Pennsylvania (I'm mostly done with the hull now, ready to start adding detail back on to the re-planked deck - superstructure's still a ways off) I just keep stumbling into more quirky differences between these two sister ships! Definitely never saw this one coming.

Okay, to keep it clear which deck is which, I'll use the terminology used on Stillwell's page 373: Aft planked deck is the Main Deck; Fore planked deck is the Upper Deck; planked deck above the casemate guns is the Superstructure Deck.

Jon: The photo on Stillwell page 163 is a great shot of the tripod leg going down past the Superstructure Deck; but this isn't the notch I was talking about. I meant the more trapezoidal one at Upper Deck level shown in the computer drawing Tracy posted. I was under the mistaken impression that this trapezoidal notch was meant to go around the leg, and that the leg would end (as seen from outside, that is, not necessarily the actual structural base of the leg.) on the Main Deck just aft of the Main/Upper break at Frame #88. The photo on page 118 of Stillwell is the clearest shot I've found indicating the leg, in fact, ends forward of the break, on the Upper Deck. (Note, though, that the platforms with the trapezoidal notch are absent in this shot. Something to be aware of for those taking their Arizona back to 1931 fit) I can't help but wonder why they'd bother making that notch though, rather than just run that platform continuous past the leg instead of making the crewmen walk around it. But the facts are what they are, I had that totally wrong.

As for Pennsy, from the photo I cited earlier it seems clear that her tripod legs did go to the main deck. Now I find that this shot:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013896.jpg
gives a decent feel for what Steve mentioned about the leg angle - they do look steeper on Pennsylvania. (A couple other things I notice about this shot: It's defnintely not early 1930s as Navsource placd it, as evidenced by the SOCs; the colored turret tops are in evidence - I believe it would be red fore, blue aft at this time - and the uniformly darker color on the steel decks may just give us a snapshot of how extensive the linoleum decking could have been - unless it's painted the deck gray. Given what we've seen in that color shot of Idaho, I'm leaning toward brown linoleum. Also, there seems to be a box structure aft of the port boat crane at Superstructure Deck level, which so far I haven't seen on her starboard side, not have I been able to tell when exactly it was deleted - might've been there at Pearl, as far as I can tell.)
Going further from what Steve said - it seems Pennsylvania's foreward tripod legs were also at a steeper angle. See:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013838.jpg
The bottom of the legs look like they connect with the Superstructure deck just ahead of the third casemate back (official designation is Casemate #5, if I'm not mistaken); compare against Stillwell's Superstructure Deck drawing on page 373, and the photo on page 215, where the Arizona's tripods contact toward the back of said casemate. Glad this was noticed now!
Also, which set of plans are these, Steve? One of the sets they have at Floating Drydock? I may just need to order some!

As for what Tracy said about slapping on a "38" - I think 99% is being too generous! I'd add a .9 or even .99 to that!

BTW, thanks so much for all the input and conversation, everyone. I've been having a great time learning so much about these ships, and I hope my observations and questions have been constructive.

- Sean F.

Speaking of Pennsylvania vs. Arizona issues, has anyone been able to tell where the 5-L paint starts on Pennsylvania's mainmast? Unlike Arizona, Pennsy's foremast's 5-L went all the way down to her Rangefinder Platform. See:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013823.jpg
which is well below the funnel top - and at the same level as the mainmast's searchlight platform. So... paint that entire starfish and the searchlights 5-L? However, looking at the specifics, it's obvious that many ships did not set the dark/light divide at the same level - Arizona among them. See also Tennessee vs. West Virginia:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014840.jpg
where Tennessee's mainmast isn't painted 5-L at all - just the top!
I've searched through the photos I have access to in books, Navsource, and Ray Bean's CD, and thus far Pennsy's mainmast is either completely obscured by the forward structure, out of the frame, or the overall color is so dark or distance from ship is so great that I can't even tell if the maintop is painted 5-L (I don't doubt it was; I just can't tell from any of the photos) Has anyone here happened to spot the demarcation level on Pennsylvania's mainmast?

- Sean F.

As a kid I had both Revell's 1/720 Arizona and 1/720 Pennsylvania. Inside each was the exact same kit, which of course was so crude it could've passed for just about anything, maybe even the Nevada if you broke a gun off the #2 and #3 turrets!

It seems to me the easiest Pennsy to build would be the Spring '42 Mare Island refit version, since it seems to be the only one with good pictures available. It would still take a lot of altering and scratchbuilding, however.

To SeanF
On page 26/27 of the book, THE WAY IT WAS PEARL HARBOR THE ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPHS, there is a photo of Pennsylvania alongside 1010 dock, the 5-L on the mainmast goes down to the
searchlight platform. The edges of the platform and the searchlights are 5-L. Unfortunately the photo is on both pages and would not scan well. But, the platform and searchlights are definately
5-L. Hope this is of some help.
John

Perfect, just what I wanted. Thanks much!

I think I'll have to add this book to my collection. Too many books out there just reprint pictures we've all seen a hundred times before... good to know there's one with "new" shots!

- Sean F.

SeanF
I should add that the box structure you were talking about is shown in the same photo. The photo was taken on 11 August, 1941. I don't know if the book is still in print, my copy was printed in
1991, that,s when I bought it. If you can't find a copy, maybe your local library could help.
John