The Ship Model Forum

If it helps, I have the "same" sheet for Arizona posted here for comparison.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

USS Nevada 1943. Photo National Archives via Roger Torgeson.

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Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Research mob strikes again!

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

I don't know if these will answer the question about whether the Pearl Harbor Battleships had painted decks (some of them anyway) or what colors they were painted. I think some were and some weren't. But these overhead views taken on 10 December 1941 provide different views that are NOT commonly seen. Something I had never paid attention to was how far ARIZONA was pulled away from her moorings by the blast.

Please note that the sun angle was low, photos taken around 0900 in the morning.

BB-36 NEVADA


BB-38 PENNSYLVANIA and CL-50 HELENA IN DRYDOCKS


BB-39 ARIZONA, BB-43 TENNESSEE, and BB-48 WEST VIRGINIA. Two views taken from different angles.




BB-44 CALIFORNIA


BB-46 MARYLAND


BB-46 MARYLAND, BB-37 OKLAHOMA, BB-43 TENNESSEE, BB-48 WEST VIRGINIA, and BB-39 ARIZONA. Two views taken at slightly different times at focus points.

If anyone ever had doubts about painted turret tops, those photos clearly confirm their presence for sure.

Thanks for posting them Rick!

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Those who still have their doubts aren't going to be swayed by such photos, unfortunately.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Unfortunately, due to the limits to the size of posted images here (between Photobucket and Modelwarships limitations so that super size images don't choke the internet , these large area images even taken with a USN Recon large format camera, don't yield as much detail as having them on one's computer (particularly the newer iMac 4K hi-res screens ).

If anyone wants or needs a closer crop view of an area in one of these images, I can do a close crop and post it.

Thanks Rick for these! Can you zoom in on Nevada's #1 and #2 turrets from the first pic you posted? I know that before the fleet was painted in MS-1 both her and Arizona only had their #2 tops painted red after their refits in Jan. '41. The #1 tops on both ships were not red. I've often wondered if this was still the case after they were painted into MS-1. It definitely appears that only #2 is painted.

Not all ships appeared to conform to that. I'm still researching however, to see if I can find any orders or pattern in textual records before I make any changes.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

In these views, and given the relative contrasts between ships, it appears to me that PA, MD, WV and CA had unpainted decks. Just my opinion, based solely on these photos. FWIW.

Close-up crop of NEVADA. The best I can do. But I can't tell in grayscale what color the different shades of gray are.

With Panchromatic B&W Film, Red appears relatively 'lighter' than most colors in grayscale.

But, it looks like turret #1 isn't painted the same as turret #2 and the two aft turrets.

Compare to the overhead view of PENNSYLVANIA.

This image tells me that NEVADA's deck was likely painted. The contrasts between the wood decks and places like the upper level decks and the Conning Tower appear to match.

And to go along with the 1943 image of NEVADA from Roger;

A great overhead view of NEVADA in SF Bay on 1 July 1943. This view shows NEVADA between her tour of duty off Attu and after she completed upkeep repairs at MINY prior to heading to the East Coast.

Oh and NO her #4 turret top ISN'T painted. The turret top is completely covered with floater net bundles!!!

Dear Rick E. Davis,

Thanks for posting the bb photos. I don't think I have seen them before.


Regards,

g. shoda

It's interesting to compare that photo with this one which suggest otherwise.



Notice you can make out the ghost rafts on turret #2 in both photos now. Also worth noting on your cropped photo, just like on Arizona, it appears that Nevada had gun director platforms installed for the forward gun tubs. You can see the circle of them on the back end of the tubs.

Jeff,

There were two types of B&W film in use during WWII. Their spectral response to light are different.

Orthochromatic; Orthochromatic photography refers to a photographic emulsion that is sensitive to only blue and green light, and thus can be processed with a red safelight. The increased blue sensitivity causes blue objects to appear lighter, and red ones darker. Orthochromatic film proved troublesome for motion pictures, rendering pink skies as perpetually overcast, blond hair as washed-out, blue eyes nearly white, and red lips nearly black.

Panchromatic; Panchromatic photography has a photographic emulsion that is sensitive to a broader spectral response range (of colors) and is generally "truer" to what the human eye sees.

Panchromatic film was quite a bit more expensive and harder to process, hence Orthochromatic film continued in use for a long time.

So it is likely that the overhead film was Panchromatic and the onboard image you posted used Orthochromatic film. The RED on Turret Two looks closer to the GREY on Turret One in the onboard view and as completely different colors in the overhead view.

This is one of the reasons I really don't try to determine "colors" from grayscale images without knowing what kind of film was used.

Thanks Rick! That is an awesome explanation and makes me believe even more that only Nevada's #2 top was red. Now if we can find a similar shot of Arizona before the explosion to look at her front turrets as well.

Jeff,

The only overhead photos I have of the Battleships at Pearl Harbor prior to the attack date from mid-October 1941 and this (cropped) view dated on 10 November 1941. The full photo that this crop came from shows ALL of Ford Island. So you can realize that the photo was taken from a fairly high altitude and doesn't provide much details. I don't know for sure, but the battleship furthest to the left is likely USS ARIZONA. This battleship is moored at the same location she normally was. USS NEVADA normally would tie up aft of her, but is missing in this photo. The other three battleships in this view are from the "Big Five" group.

So, do we suppose the (likely blown clear) rafts had been painted red, or 5-D so as not to stand out when the ship was seen in profile? (And if 5-D, and if only the #2 turret top were painted, they'd be obscuring over a third of the color meant for aerial recognition. Seeing how Maryland appears to have had both aft turrets blue at one point, and seeing the variations in where the 5-D/5-L boundaries are on the various ships, I suspect the individual captains exercised some influence over their ships' schemes. Drastic variations in placement of those rafts as well. I wonder... I've seen some models of Nevada carrying rafts on the #4 turret... perhaps her captain personally opposed to the whole color coding thing, especially as it conflicted in principle with the navy's decision to paint his ship's deck?)

Something else I see: in addition to what Jeff mentioned about it looking like there are gun director platforms installed, the foremost gun tubs look to be completely empty. Last I recall, we'd more or less "concluded" NV was carrying 3" guns there. Unless they removed them just a day or so after the attack before that overhead shot was taken, I'm inclined to figure them empty during the attack, just like AZ.

Could we get a similar zoom-in on the aft turrets to look for signs of rafts and state of the gun tubs?

- Sean F.

I'd expect that's the Pennsylvania, freshly moved to BatDiv 2, with those bright white tops matching the Tennessee-class ship ahead of her.

But that brings up another question that I'd been pondering the other day:
What were the "normal" positions of the battleships of the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor (including Colorado, to complete the set)? Obviously PA was not normally in drydock, nor was Vestal regularly moored next to AZ. Makes for an interesting hypothetical; what if the Japanese attacked a week/month/etc. earlier or later.

- Sean F.

Hi Sean, you are right about that being the Pennsylvania in that photo. Arizona was in dry dock at the time getting repaired. Also notice the forward boat boom on the port side of Pennsylvania. Of all the tripod BB's, only Pennsylvania had boat booms that far forward on the bow. It's a dead giveaway.