The Ship Model Forum

Hi Chuck,

Sent you a PM.


Sincerely,

TNK

Messages in your outbox means the recipient just hasn't opened it or viewed yet, not that it's "stuck".

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Thanks Timmy

TnK,

Details have been mailed to you along with some nice photos of several of their models to offer a better idea on what detail you can expect.

Chuck

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"China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will shake the world." ~ Napoleon Bonaparte

Does anyone have information on the function of the 2nd pair of 4.5m rangfinder turrets on Yamato's super structure? In 1941 configuration, these are located over the foremost 5" gun mount. By 1944 they've been moved to a location over the aftmost 5" gun mount. Tamiya depicted them as standard type 94 AA directors identical to the other pair on the base of the tower bridge, save for the blast hoods. But several sources, including ATOS, the Kure model, latest Japanese CGI rendering, shows they are distinctly different from the type 94 AA directors on at the base of the tower bridge that also sported a 4.5 m range finders. In any case their locations do not command good sky arcs, and appears to have been selected primarily so they command good arcs to either beam but with not clear arc fore and aft, unlike the type 94 directors which have excellent sky arcs and clear arcs for and aft. So what are they and what do they do?

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

I recommend that everyone get a copy of a new publication from Model Art called the Super Illustration of IJN Yamoto - see here : http://www.hlj.com/product/MDA745

Extremely impressive soft bound volume with the most upto date info out there. The author is a modeler and detail freak who has combed all the available info, including the Kure Museum models, all the wreck film documentation, all photos, all plans, everything, to produce 1/700 drawings (similar to Skulski style) of Yamato in 3 states, as completed, midwar, and final state. There is a wealth of surprising tidbits, new info, and well reasoned speculations (when no other date available) in these drawings. Each page comes with English language captions- actually paragraphs - describing what's depicted. I am very impressed with this item. Very few photos but there is one of Yamato's stern at Truk without the aerial on top of the jib crane - author contends it was removed sometimes in 1943 and offers this up for proof.

I also am led to understand that Pacific Front Hobbies has commissioned a full translation to come.

If I have time, I will try to review it to answer Chuck's question

FWIW

Thanks for letting us know what you think about this book Dan, I first thought about buying it when I noticed the writing was also translated to English but at the same time I had second thoughts I wasn’t sure if I should buy it or buy one of the gakken series I ‘ve seen on Ebay like this one :

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gakken-book-11-IJN-Battleship-YAMATO_W0QQitemZ350038740420QQihZ022QQcategoryZ2590QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem,

I’ve planned to model Yamato again I got AOTS but I want or need 2 more references at least ,well make it one now I’ll make sure of buying this one you said. I’ve planned to start this new project on August I should be done with Maya by then. If you know of another good one let me know, talking about books.. I’m half way reading “Requiem for the Battleship Yamato” by Mitsuru Yoshida, I’m impressed by this tiny book compared to others I’ve read in the past, the way Yoshida described how events occurred are breath taking, its an inspiring book and also heart breaking, Quotes from sailors : “ cherry blossoms , oh cherry blossoms of Japan – farewell!” This is one out of dozens on this book it must be painful to know you are not coming back to your homeland or family ever again, I highly recommend this book to those who wants to know more about Yamato’s pre sail and final battle seen by the eyes of this radar officer .

I highly recommend the latest Pacific War series book on the Yamato, (http://www.hlj.com/product/GAKPW-50) which is based on a very detailed CG rendering of the Yamato and very informative about the appearance and layout of the ship's detail. It also features an amazing, anatomically correct, highly detailed cutaway physical model of the Yamato's 18" turret, featuring full working interior mechanisms down to functional semi-automatic breech mechanism and scale turret roller bearings.

I actually have all three books mentioned above, the Super Illustration, the earlier Gekkan (http://www.hlj.com/product/GAKPW-11) book, and the ATOS, plus Gekkan Pacific War CG book on the Yamato. I don't read Japanese, so I have to judge by the pictures.

The details presented in the earlier Gakken book (http://www.hlj.com/product/GAKPW-11) are based on a very detailed 1/60 scale physical model of the Yamato. However, many of the details on that model, such as hull plating, directly contradicts the few pieces of original IJN engineering drawings that survived the war. Many more contradicts some surviving photos of the ship. I get the impression that model Gekkan used was based on an earlier stage of research when less information about the ship has been discovered. I also suspect the Tamiya 1/350 scale Yamato is based on a similar stage of research as the Gekkan model because they share similar features that have been abandoned by later interpretations of the Yamato, such as the 1/350 Kure model.

The ATOS book seems to be from a later stage of research than the Gakken 11 books, and corrects many of the details that was questionable in the Gekkan book. But that book has numerous problems of its own that does not reconcile with available photo evidence. For example the connection between the main superstructure block and the aft director tower is directly contradicted by available photos. The ATOS book also feature some geometric inconsistencies that only becomes apparent if one tries to actually construct a physical or CG model based on his interpretation. For example the shank of the anchor can't possible fit in the length of the hawse tube without protruding 3 feet above the weather deck. Skulski failed to detect this.

The Pacific War series Yamato book seem has a very detailed CG model of the Yamato, including interior spaces. The details on this model mostly conforms to the Kure model (1/10). There are a few places where the CG model departs from the Kure model, and there the author seems to present both the Kure interpretation, and his own, plus photographic justification for his own. So I think the CG book is very outstanding indeed. The geometric problem found in the Skulksi ATOS is detected here by the CG 3D model. The 3D model correctly located the end of the anchor shank 3 feet above the deck opening of the hawse pipe. Unfortunately the renderer concocted an unconvincing solution by having the anchor chain somehow arcs through thin air to connect with the D ring at the end of the anchor.

The Super Illustrated book is also excellent, and generally comparable in the amount of details offered. In a few details the interpretation of the Super Illustrated book differs from Pacific war series, but on the whole they agree. I personally regard the Pacific War book to be the best as far as reliability of details illustrated goes, closely followed by Super Illustrated. I think both books incorporate latest information and very currently informed speculation. The reason why I placed one over the other is because of the illustration. The quality and detail of CG in Pacific War book is unimpeachable. The quality of illustration in the Super Illustration book is also certainly top notch, but contains a number of drafting mistakes that suggests the illustrations were directly drawn in 2D, instead of being drawn off 3D models. Notably the Anchor shank problem was brushed under the rug by exquisite but physically impossible drafting. The fact that a 3D CG model would uncover geometric inconsistencies that a 2D drawing would miss would seem to make the 3D CG model of the Pacific War series books more reliable in terms of getting the complex 3D shapes and relationships of Yamato's components and superstructures right.

Incidentally, the Kure 1/10 scale physical model offers the only seemly plausible solution to the anchor shank problem by incorporating a chain ramp on the upper end of the hawse hole to enable the anchor chain to ride over it and reach the shank from a proper angle. Gekkan model solved the problem by placing the lower end of the hawse opening lower on the side of the ship than is indicated by photographic evidence. Tamiya's 1/350 Yamato adopted the same problematic solution as the Gekkan book.

That's my 0.002 cents.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

So, Chuck, if you have the Super Illustration book, (which postdates all the Gakken volumes, and the AOTS book is probably a decade old), then the answer to your question lies on p.98, Fig 7-13. It's a 5m rangefinder used for navigation, replaced by 25mm AA control directors.

I know. I saw that. But the author admits it was a speculation, and I don't find the speculation persuasive at all:

1. Navigation range finders should be able to see ahead of the ship, right? These 4.5 meter finders have impaired arcs forward.

2. Japanese navigation RF have 1.5 meter bases. Yamato already has a 1.5 meter nagivaton RF on the front of the tower bridge, half way up to the top.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Good points. On the other hand, the class already has 4 Type 94 HA directors to handle the (initial) 6 12.7cm AA mounts. That's more than enough coverage and redundancy - the Shokaku's had 4 directors to handle 8 mounts. And, clearly, the 4 directors on Yamato/Musashi were enough to handle the increase to 12 12.7cm AA mounts later on.

So, it doesn't seem like your mounts are there for the heavy AA. Food for thought. In any case, they were replaced by 25mm MG directors.

Thanks for the dollar bill Chuck , I'll try to find one of those on Ebay only place I know I can find them at a unthinkable price , with these 3 references I'm sure I'll be able to do something decent.

You are welcome.

Just a note, having bought the book on ebay, not being able to read Japanese, and not being very attentive when browsing the hlj website, I somehow didn't manage to realize the Pacific War CG book on the Yamato I referred to is actually part of the Gakken series. So I was actually taking about two different Gakken books: http://www.hlj.com/product/GAKPW-11 andhttp://www.hlj.com/product/GAKPW-50. The GAKPW-50 is the one I recommend. The earlier GAKPW-11 relies on quite dated information.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Thanks again for telling me Chuck so far I've only seen the 11th edition on Ebay, I'll keep an eye out on the 50 edition I'm confident someone will sell it eventually.

Yamato experts I need your help on this one and maybe in a couple of others, pic you are seeing here is from the “Modeling Guide” magazine of the Yamato, the model is the one at the Yamato museum. I’ve been comparing this model with the plans I got on the AOTS and I’ve found plenty of irregularities in the both of them. Yamato model is supposed to be depicted in 1945 the 1945 plans on the AOTS shows clearly a gun control tower ( gun director) between two shielded 5” AA guns ( type 89) this control tower is not shown on the model at Kure. Another one, the Yamato model shows all 3 searchlights in place a total of 6 of them, on the other hand the AOTS shows a gun director instead of a searchlight. I’ve circle 3 different things on the picture last one I’m trying to figure out is if there was some sort of door or entrance to those two balconies added next to the combat bridge my guess is the entrance is right in the middle but I can’t see it in these pictures I got here. guys I need you to tell me which of these 2 guides I’m using now is more accurate. I can't wait to get ahold of the gakken 50 I ordered that should answer a couple of my questions too in the meantime any help will be greatly appreciate it, TIA

When in doubt, Kure model is right and AOTS is wrong. And that is not just jest.

Regarding the searchlight configuration, AOTS's 4 light configuration is likely wrong. This is because the 4 search light configuration depicted in ATOS is inconsistent with the 6 search light director also depicted in ATOS. On the Yamato the search lights are remotely controlled from search light directors. This enables the search lights direction to be integrated into fire control. Each director can control several search lights, but to enable multiple target engagement there are as many search light directors as there are search lights. Several sources, including AOTS, agree that in her final configuration Yamato carrier 6 search light directors. Why would she carry more directors than search lights?

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

AOTS is more likely to be wrong about the search lights. Both Kure and AOTS agree that the Yamato had 6 separate search light directors (2 sharing a platform on each side of the back of the tower, 1 on the rear end of a platform on the compass bridge level on each side of the tower bridge). Why would the Yamato carry more search light directors than search lights? Japanese practice is to provide as many search lights as search light directors. Although each SL director can control multiple search lights, having as many directors as there are search lights maximizes the ship's ability to engage multiple targets. Having more directors than search lights would be pointless.

The placement of a AA director between the type 89 5" mounts as depicted in AOTS would seem unlikely as well. A director there would have severely restricted sky arc, not to mention it would also restrict the arcs of the 5" guns. The director there would also be severaly effected by blast of the 5" guns. The newer, larger light AAA director on the Yamato were pretty elabrate and delicate affairs, with their own integral gyro stabilized 1.5 mm steroscopic rangefinders. I doubt they will fair well placed so potentially close to the muzzle of a 5" gun.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Thanks Chuck I’ll try to use more Kure’s model as a reference than Skulsky’s book, there s another thing too ,drawing plans you see here is from the AOTS, pages 60,61 I understand what you said about the searchlight directors but I thought these I circled here were AA gun directors not searchlight directors like you said, I’ll rephrase it I read on this book these are supposed to be AA gun directors Chuck something else before I forget are the Gakken 50’s rendered images accurate as the Yamato model in Kure and what about this other book the one with the blue cover “Model Art” one is it also accurate with updated info I kind of have second thoughts about AOTS now, hey thanks again

Jose, in AOTS the rearmost of the 2 AA directors you circled occupies a tub that formerly held a 1.5 meter search light, leaving the ship with just 2 search lights per side. But there are still 3 search light directors on the bridge tower, which is odd if there are only 2 searchlight for them to control. On the Kure model the AA director is located on a new barbette, leaving 3 search lights on each side for the 3 search light directors to control. So I feel Kure interpretation is more likely to be right.

There are differences between the Gakken 50 book and the Kure model. I can't really say which is more accurate because for all practical purposes they date to about the same time (2004-2005), and I see no really obvious implausibilities in either (except for Gekkan's obviously implausible reconstruction of how anchor chain can be made to arc through thin air to connect with the anchor, but at least Gakken knows the anchor shank would stick out when stowed, AOTS didn't know). Gakken 50 book in a few places illustrates both the configuration depicted on the Kure model (see the stern towing fairlead), and its own different interpretation, and then offer somewhat blurred and ambiguous photographic evidence to support its own interpretation. So I think they were likely based on essentially the same body of evidence, and their differences primarily a result of legitimate differences in opinion about how to interpret available evidence.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

I would assume that the second image is one of Musashi, judging from the lack of closed 25mm mounts along the broadside, in front of the 12.7cm guns?

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