Calling all USS North Carolina BB-55 & USS Washington BB-56 fans

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Ron Smith
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Post by Ron Smith »

kevinb120 wrote:lol I don't think anyone would doubt who that 'guest' was :eyebrows:

So should I do black or navy for the trumpy NC with the LR pe?? The LR kit has the SP-2 radar if i'm not mistaken. I like the idea of the navy better IMO.
The LR PE set is for the post 1944 refit so you have two choices, the later Ms32/18d and Ms22 (you can do bright decks in Ms22 scheme from the time she is halfway through the Panam Canal in late 1945 through 1946).

It's your model, paint how you like but be aware 5-N has very weak arguments for it based on current, original source evidence. But if they allow a paint sample to be lifted (say next week) and it contains all the layer of paint back to her #5 standard navy grey and the appropriate layer for her later Ms32/18d does turn out to be 5-N I certainly won't argue it as long as I get a sample to examine under a real microscope with halogen ring lighting.

Takne from any area above the main deck where the darkest color is, they should be:

#5 SNG
5-O (Ms12 mod, may also be 5-H or in some very specific spots 5-N), should be two layers at least
5-N two layers from her Ms21
black 2 layers from Ms32
5-H Ms22, possibly two layers
several layers of post-war grey
whatever they have on her now and any primers applied
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kevinb120
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Post by kevinb120 »

Heh, I was poking around and found the huge arguments on ShipCamouflage.Com :big_grin: Maybe I should of ordered the Kuznetsov instead.... :lol_1:

Not to revisit any of the arguments, but IMHO, in the shipcamoflage picture, I clearly see blue in the pic you were all arguing over based on the stack greyscale(the ymw pic)

http://www.yankeemodelworks.com/images/bB55color2.jpg

BUT

on the navy history site, the same picture in a different tint I would say black

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... k00101.jpg

And you can even see how much Ron's model can flip-flop under certain lighting as well:

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... 4/sup1.jpg

So who knows, I may just do postwar grey untill you guys figure it out, I can always build another one... :smallsmile:
of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
....I think the carpet monster got that too!
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Blue Devil
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Washington from NC

Post by Blue Devil »

I accidentally posted this in the main forum, but supposed I should be asking it here!

I know this has already been discussed a bit, but I just picked up an old copy of Battleship At War and wondered what would be required to convert the Trumpy NC to the Washington. Pretty much any point in the war would be OK, I don't have a lot of conversion experience.

Thanks!

BD
Tracy White
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Post by Tracy White »

If you want to do her later in the war it's pretty simple. I haven't paid attention recently so I'm probably missing some details, but I remember determining that one platform on the forward top that North Carolina had Washington didn't.. and that there was a minor difference on the bridge level with Washington having a 20mm where NC had a searchlight or something similar.
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman
Rshoker

North Carolina Measure 32 , Now I am sure it is B....

Post by Rshoker »

Capt Dave Schue very kindly let me take sand paper to a five inch mount to see if BB55 was sandblasted after the war or if the Measure 32 paint was still buried under years of repainting. After standing for an hour in the hot southern sun I got back to 1947's Haze grey layer, then hit the yellow primer. She was probably sandblasted before her 1947 Measure 13 paintjob.

Things looked bleak but then Kim Sincox of the BB55 said she seemed to remember a crewmans diary where he mentioned the 1943 pearl harbor repaint. They are an incredibly organized museum, and she produced a file in a few minutes with a letter from the crewman and a color photo copy of his dairy, which reads, "We got our new cammo today, Black, light blue and dark blue."

Obviously the kid was looking at Black, pale grey (his light blue) and Haze grey (being darker than pale grey would look like dark blue). I was shocked as I had been debating my pals Ron Smith and Steve Wiper for a long time on the color scheme. Even the offical BB55 line was Navy Blue. I doubt they will repaint her black, but they might. I would prefer thay spend their money protcting the artifact. Which, by the way they do a great job of.

So thats it. A 17 year year old sailor, who when asked today has no memory of the color change, wrote it in his diary. For the sake of Privacy I cannot post his name here, but I do have a photo copy of his diary page and will be changing the drawings in my book when it is reprinted late this summer.

As for the repaint in 1944 she was most likly repainted black and the Navy Blue would not have covered the black as it faded, and late war photos of her in measure 32 don;t seem to show the kind of splocthing that Navy blue painted over black would do as it faded.

I was wrong. Ron Smith and Steve Wiper were right. Nice detective work Ron...

Take care all...
Randy Shoker
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kevinb120
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Re: Washington from NC

Post by kevinb120 »

Blue Devil wrote:I accidentally posted this in the main forum, but supposed I should be asking it here!

I know this has already been discussed a bit, but I just picked up an old copy of Battleship At War and wondered what would be required to convert the Trumpy NC to the Washington. Pretty much any point in the war would be OK, I don't have a lot of conversion experience.

Thanks!

BD
I think the Washington always had the bedspring and not the SK2 radar.
of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
....I think the carpet monster got that too!
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rshoker
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Corrections to Measure 32 post above

Post by rshoker »

I put the above post up a couple a days ago when I got back from the BB-55 and did a quick post late at night. Below is a rewrite of the prior post that I am posting in several places with a few corrections to my original post.

Hello All,

Here is my new view of BB-55�s Measure 32 s after a trip to the battleship and more info from that naval detective Ron Smith. First a little background. If you have followed this debate so far you know it centers around BB-55 color scheme specifically her measure 32 pattern worn in 1943-1944. Conventional wisdom holds that she wore a measure 32 that consisted of 5-N (Navy Blue) 5-H (Haze gray) and 5-P (pale gray). Recently researchers like Ron Smith have suggested that her 1st version of measure 32 was actually Black- was most likely 5-O and 5-L (ocean gray and light gray).

So to find try to find out what the actual colors were I enlisted the help of Dave Scheu, director of BB-55. Our first plan was to hope that the ship had not been taken down to bare metal and still had her Measure 32 paint buried under layers of her post war paint.


Capt Dave Scheu very kindly let me take sand paper to a five inch mount to see if BB55 was sandblasted after the war or if the Measure 32 paint was still buried under years of repainting. After standing for an hour in the hot southern sun I got back to 1947's Haze gray layer, then hit the yellow primer. She was probably sandblasted before her 1947 Measure 13 paintjob.

Things looked bleak but then Kim Sincox ( museum Services Director) of the BB55 said she seemed to remember a crewman�s diary where he mentioned the 1943 pearl harbor repaint. They are an incredibly organized museum, and she produced a file in a few minutes with a letter from the crewman and a color photo copy of his dairy, which reads, "We got our new cammo today, Black, light blue and dark blue."

Obviously the kid was looking at Black, pale gray 5-P (or light gray 5-P See below) and Haze gray 5-H (or Ocean gray 5-O). I was shocked as I had been debating my pals Ron Smith and Steve Wiper for a long time on the color scheme. Even the official BB55 line was Navy Blue. I doubt they will repaint her black, but they might. I would prefer they spend their money protecting the artifact. Which, by the way they do a great job of.

It gets better, or worse depending on your point of view. If BB 55 was indeed painted black and not 5-N, then the other two colors in the Measure 32 pairing was most likely 5-O and 5-L, not 5-H and 5-P. Remember, Measures 31, 32 and 33 are not only color combinations but they have specified "total reflectance" ranges they have to achieve.
Ron Smith kindly pointed this out to me and I do believe that he is correct given color pairings were the key in all camo schemes. Then Yesterday Ron dropped a bomb, he pointed me to a Nav history design sheet for BB-55 that Naval History has on their web site that says the colors are Black, 5-o and 5-L. I almost fell off my chair.

A close study of this Naval history design sheet shows a very similar pattern to what she actually wore. It is called Measure 32v.11 18-d. It seems very likely that the version the crew painted on at pearl was an attempt to follow this sheet. Ron�s excellent article in the most recent issue of the Nautical Research Guild also talks about the deck pattern of the first Measure 32, again it does not follow the design sheet exactly, but the photos show a deck pattern, at least prior to her 1944 repaint on the west coast.


Bottom line is this, I don�t know for sure and now BB55 does not know for sure. Based on what evidence we have she was probably black and with 5-O and 5-L,. That would explain the diary entry.

So that�s it. A 17 year old sailor, who when asked today has no memory of the color change, wrote it in his diary. For the sake of Privacy I cannot post his name here, but I do have a photo copy of his diary page and will be changing the drawings in my book when it is reprinted late this summer.

Until the Curator can find a piece of paper that states the original work order and paints used at Pearl Harbor in the fall of 1943, there will always be a bit of uncertainty as the actual colors used. But I think Black, 5-O and 5-L would be the best guess. I am going to try to get a hold of one more crewman that Kim thinks might know or remember, but all memories fade with time. It will be interesting to hear his thoughts.

As for the repaint in 1944 she was most likely repainted black as the Navy Blue would not have covered the black as it faded, and late war photos of her in measure 32 don�t seem to show the kind of splotching that Navy blue painted over black would do as it faded.

The deck pattern seems to be gone after her 1944 repaint although it still seems to be on turret roofs.

I was wrong. Ron Smith was right. Nice detective work Ron...

Take care,

Randy Shoker
Ron Smith
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Re: Corrections to Measure 32 post above

Post by Ron Smith »

rshoker wrote:I put the above post up a couple a days ago when I got back from the BB-55 and did a quick post late at night. Below is a rewrite of the prior post that I am posting in several places with a few corrections to my original post.
Thanks for the post Randy, I waited to comment until after you made the correction.
Then Yesterday Ron dropped a bomb, he pointed me to a Nav history design sheet for BB-55 that Naval History has on their web site that says the colors are Black, 5-o and 5-L. I almost fell off my chair.
Is that what that noise over the phone was? ;)
A close study of this Naval history design sheet shows a very similar pattern to what she actually wore. It is called Measure 32v.11 18-d. It seems very likely that the version the crew painted on at pearl was an attempt to follow this sheet.
Most ships don't match the design sheets 100%, crew jobs tend to differ more than yard jobs.
Ron�s excellent article in the most recent issue of the Nautical Research Guild also talks about the deck pattern of the first Measure 32, again it does not follow the design sheet exactly, but the photos show a deck pattern, at least prior to her 1944 repaint on the west coast.
Just looking at the photos on NHC and Navsource should have been enough to prove she had a deck pattern.
As for the repaint in 1944 she was most likely repainted black as the Navy Blue would not have covered the black as it faded, and late war photos of her in measure 32 don�t seem to show the kind of splotching that Navy blue painted over black would do as it faded.
Using prints from original negatives, not copy negs on Eastman Safety Film (not available until 1948, excellent detail rendition at the price of increased contrast......that's called in depth research kids) and comparing the tonal difference between the paint and boot top where it's well lit and still in Puget's yard area against other original negative prints of known Ms21 (5-N) and those boot tops (similar lighting conditions and still in the yard) BB-55 does not show near the contrast difference between boot topping and 5-N. Some of the Puget photos of BB-55 show the paint to be as dark or darker than the boot and the original negatives show the inverse, which agrees with the positive prints.
The deck pattern seems to be gone after her 1944 repaint although it still seems to be on turret roofs.
Decks and turrets roofs were usually painted after all the heavy yard work was done and the ship had made her post-refit trials and calibration runs. Once she's back in the fleet high angle shots are few and poor quality. It appears she got deck blue on her #1 & #2 mains with light grey on her #3 main but no pattern. Also the secondaries with the darkest color adjacent to the roof appear to have that color on the roofs, not deck blue and it applies to both the early and later version of the scheme.
I was wrong. Ron Smith was right. Nice detective work Ron...
Thanks! Now to get those as painted design sheets to you.
Last edited by Ron Smith on Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Chic Sky
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trumpeter 1:700 North Carolina kit

Post by Chic Sky »

The paint guide shows the funnels to be the same height, I hope that is not the case for the actual model when completed.

Has anyone completed this particular kit?
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Timmy C
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Post by Timmy C »

It would appear to be so, unfortunately. Here's the model that was on display at a show some time back:

http://www.hlj.com/product/PITW-94
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Chic Sky
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Post by Chic Sky »

A little scratch building would bring the forward funnel to its correct height. The aft funnel seems to be the right height, but if not, a little sanding would solve it.

I'll post later when I get the actual measurements.
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Post by ModelMonkey »

On a business trip this week I had an opportunity to have lunch with a
retired, patriotic lady and took some pictures of her for your viewing
pleasure.

USS North Carolina as she appeared February 15, 2007:
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MartinJQuinn
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Post by MartinJQuinn »

Picked up the Trumpeter 1/700 Washington today at lunch, during a trip to the LHS. The molding looks crisp, though you'll face the same problem with filling seams, due to the way Trumpeter breaks down the parts. At least the deck is one piece!

Looks like she is in her November 1942 fit. I'm going to have to see how much work it would be to backdate her to an early 1942 fit. When I eventually build her, I want to paint her in Ms12 mod, as in this picture from the USS Washington website:

Image
Martin

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Blue Devil
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Washington

Post by Blue Devil »

Martin (or anyone else),

I have the 1/350 NC and would rather do the Washington. Can anyone compare the instructions on the 1/700 NC and Washington kits and post the differences. At least that would be a start!

Thanks!

BD
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MartinJQuinn
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Re: Washington

Post by MartinJQuinn »

Blue Devil wrote:Martin (or anyone else),

I have the 1/350 NC and would rather do the Washington. Can anyone compare the instructions on the 1/700 NC and Washington kits and post the differences. At least that would be a start!

Thanks!

BD
My scanner is off line right now, or I'd scan and send them to you. Take a look at these Navsource pages for some pictures of both ships:
North Carolina
Washington

The biggest difference I can see is the platform on the tower superstructure (it's just behind the Mk37 director on the bridge in this picture).

Image

Depending on what year BB-56 you want to build, there is also a cut out in the port side of the forecastle (might have been for an anchor?) that Washington had until at least 1943, which can be seen in this picture (It's about half-way between the forward turret and the bow):

Image

The 1/700 kit does have this "cut-out" in it's deck, the 1/350 version of NC does not. From the pictures, it looks like a post 1943 Washington and the Trumpeter NC are fairly close in AA layout.
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

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Dick J

Post by Dick J »

Hi Guys,

Just got my Washington (1/700) today. The kit looks nice, but has anyone else noticed that the light AA fit matches the early '42 North Carolina rather than the '42 Washington? I guess it's time to start filling all those holes, and putting them in the right places.
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Blue Devil
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NC to Washington

Post by Blue Devil »

Martin (and anyone else),

In your last response to me you note that it looks like the post '43 Washington and the Trumpy NC have similar AA fits. Would it be the consensus of the board that the Trumpy 1/350 NC can be made into the post '43 Washington with just the removal of the platform on the forward tower? When was the deck cut-out filled in on the Washington?

The Washington web site has some nice drawings http://www.usswashington.com/diag.htm but they seem to be end of the war, and I'd like to make it earlier. That's why I thought the 1/700 instruction sheet might be helpful.

Thanks!!

BD
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Post by ModelMonkey »

It is possible that the cutout was removed during repairs after USS Washington's collision with USS Indiana which occured on 1 February 1944. The damage was very serious to both ships. USS Washington received 60 new feet of bow during repairs. Ten lives were lost in this accident, six killed or missing on Washington and four on Indiana. You can read more about the accident and see photos here:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/even ... sh-ind.htm

The cut out is gone in the following 1944 and 1945 photos of USS Washington. Careful inspection of the first photo will reveal much of her AA fit. Notice the ship is riding very high in the water (indicating a light load at the time the photo was taken) revealing some of her hull's shape.

Image

Image
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Blue Devil
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Upon further review...

Post by Blue Devil »

OK, looking more carefully at the diagrams on the Washington web site, the AA layout in the large, detailed diagram is DIFFERENT than the diagram in the 20mm section in that there are less 20mm guns. Indeed, the layout is very close to the Trumpy 1/350 NC kit set up.

I'm going to assume that the drawing in the 20mm section is the end of the war and the more detailed one is post spring '44 refit (no cutout in forward deck) and go with that one. This is when she was still painted in Ms.22 with the demarcation line tending sharply down towards the bow. Does this make sense to anyone else, or am I way off here?

Thanks again for all the help!

BD
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MartinJQuinn
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Post by MartinJQuinn »

I believe Steve is right about when the cut out was removed. If you look at this picture of Washington (from the BB56 website) after her collision with Indiana, you can just make out the cut out, just aft of where the deck is collapsed:
Image

I'd say if you want to build a Washington from the North Carolina kit, a post collision refit will be the easiest conversion for you.
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

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