The Ship Model Forum

The plans are from a book Keystone Battlewagon by Myron J Smith, Jr., available from this site:

http://www.pictorialhistoriespublishing.com/

It is not a complete set, just the overall plan and starboard side profile. Shows the ship c.1935.

You appear to be correct about the fore mast tripod legs, approximately 11 degress on Pennsylvania, 14 degrees on Arizona.

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Steve Sobieralski
Tampa Bay Ship Model Society

Just been looking at SeanF's closeup of the Pennsylvania's mainmast again.The welded patches on all three legs, could they be repairs from the Pearl Harbor attack?

Anything's possible, but I doubt it. On page 163 of Stillwell's book you can clearly see similar "patches" on the Arizona's tripod legs, and that picture was taken in 1933.

I wonder if they are some type of access plates. Looking at the pic dsk mentioned, it does not look like they were welded.

I've always wondered just how well battle damage was usually repaired, whether there was no trace or if a person could usually see where bulkheads and such had been rewelded. Heck, I've never owned a vehicle with repaired collision damage that I couldn't tell it had been hit! For example I've noticed on pics of the late-war Pennsylvania that you can easily see where the two extra hawespipes were welded over with round plates when she was rebuilt at Mare Island.

I read in one of my books about the battleship HMS Warspite, that when she went into drydock in 1934 to be re-built, the dockworkers found damage that the ship had received at Jutland in
1916, the damage had been patched over and left that way!
I'm still wondering about those plates on the Pennsylvania's mainmast, if they are access panels, some of them are in hard to reach areas. Plus, the size of them, they'd be difficult to remove.
Maybe someone out there knows what they are?

My copy just arrived today. Excellent stuff, lots of photos I've never seen before!
Regarding the above-referenced Pennsylvania shot: This photo also confirms the gun tub just past the deck step, with a 3" AA gun mounted. It reveal (to me, anyway) another "Holy cow, how did I miss that?" difference with the Arizona: the big boat cranes have a significant amount of machinery or something on a platorm nested where the boom meets the post. It's there in plenty of other shots, I just hadn't noticed before. See: http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013803g.jpg Also, the searchlight control room affixed to the side of her funnel looks as though the openings, or at least some of them, were either plated or canvassed over. It's visible in the 1942 photo referenced above, and also here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/0138004.jpg which indicates that it was already like that even further back when the searchlights were still mounted there, whereas Arizona has hers open in every shot I've seen. (I'm not sure if this was a permanent difference, or a ship preference of whether or not to keep canvas there.)

Another surprising thing is that, if the caption dates are correct, the range clocks were still mounted to the battleships at least untill August 1941. They are visible in silhouette on the Pennsylvania's mainmast in the photo on page 26/27, likewise in silhouette on the mainmast of the Arizona, Oklahoma, and probably West Virginia in the smaller photo on page 27, and very blatantly on the California in the photo on page 14. On the other hand, they appear to be absent from their brackets on the Nevada and Oklahoma in the photo on page 14, dated November 3, 1941. Also notable in the Nevada and Oklahoma shot on page 14 is the different heights of their 5-L paint.

Of course, these photos from the dry period of mid/late 1941 make me suspect that there simply must be more out there somewhere.

- Sean F.

SeanF
Yes there were a lot of differences between the Arizona and the Pennsylvania. They were sisters but definately not twins! That extra machinery on the Pennsylvania's boat cranes is intriging,
I wonder if they were designed to carry heavier weights?

Be careful comparing Arizona with Pennsylvania in general, and in this area in particular. Pennsylvania's bulges have a notch near the stern that Arizona does not.
Those great early '42 Pennsy photos are a wonderful source of clear details, but always double-check against even less clear photos of the Arizona herself to see if things match. (Learning this the hard way myself.)

- Sean F.

I feel your pain SeanF. There are some things on the hull of Penn that I am going to put on my kit just to a give a little more detail. It may not be accurate but I think it would make it look better IMO.

Some photos of the rebuilt Pennsy, scanned at the National Archives, Record Group 19LCM:

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Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

Wow, very cool pictures Martin, thanks for sharing!

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-Abram
ModelWarships Gallery Page
Joslin Models Facebook Page

Good call on splitting the thread. The Arizona thread is huge and finding info about the Pennsy in there has been getting harder and harder. I will try to add some CAD image here later on to illustrate the changes in fit over the years.

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Timothy Dike
Owner & Administrator
ModelWarships.com

Per CT Mohr's diorama:



Has anyone seen this actual picture? Any links to where I might find it?

Hi guys! What's the latest on the Dragon 1/350 Pennsylvania? Will it be released this year? I still have heaps to do on my 1/200 Arizona, but the Pennsy model is definately one I want to add to the collection.
John

Last I heard it is, but things change, so dont be disappointed if it isnt...

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"Also we will never see a 1/350 late war Enterprise from Dragon due to a paralyzing fear of success...." - Heavy Melder

Lots of unfinished model ships + attention issues = A busy slipway where nothing gets done!

Here's a question I've never been able to find the answer to. Why didn't Pennsylvania ever open fire on the Japanese fleet during the Battle of Surigao Strait? Was she ordered not to, or was she unable to do so?

It was the director/radar combination. The totally-rebuilt BB's (West Virginia, California & Tennessee) all had MK-34 directors (originally ordered for the Cleveland's that were converted to CVL's) with MK-8 radar. The Mississippi had a MK-31 director with MK-3 radar. Maryland and Pennsylvania had an earlier system (I can't remember the exact MK#) with MK-3 radar. One of the limitations of the MK-3 (discovered in the Guadalcanal night actions) was that it would fixate on the shell splashes while the target veered out of the specified range of the radar. The false targets would reappear with each salvo. This is why the US at first claimed many more ships sunk in night actions - they accidentally ranged on the splashes, and when the gunfire stopped, the target was gone and presumed sunk. At Surigao Strait, the ships with the MK-34's had a good target lock for the entire action. Maryland fired a few salvos, ranging on West Virginia's shell splashes. Mississippi fired one salvo. Pennsylvania was unsure of the target location, being unable to pick out the real target in a forest of splashes. After Surigao Strait, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Colorado all had their after directors replaced with MK-34's mounting MK-8 radar. This way, they would have at least one director that could cope with a possible future night action.

Edit: According to Friedman, Maryland completed with the MK-11 director system. Pennsylvania's '30's modernization included the MK-20 system.

Thanks a lot, Dick. The answer to that question had been eluding me for a long time.

I just purchased the 1/700 Midship Pennsylvania. I believe this kit is more of the Feb 1942 refit than 41, first the aft 1.1 gun tubs on the kit go on the boat deck by the aft main tripod mast as seen in the Feb 42 Mare refit pics. Shouldn't they go on the aft deck next to the number 3 turret like Arizona for 41? Also what did the smoke stack search light tower look like in 41? The one in the kit looks like the Feb 42 refit pics didnt she still look like Arizona in 41? The aft tripod in the kit lacks the top AA birdbath platform and shows mounting the radar there instead, I thought she still had the birdbath at pearl and had the radar where Arizona was to receive her's? Also the first main bridge level dosent look right, even for 42? and the next higher bridge level section on the kit has splinter shielding and provisions for 20mm AA guns like the Feb 42 refit pics. shouldnt this level still have railings only and no splinter shielding and no 20mm AA mount locations in 41? If anyone got some answers please chime in, otherwise the kit looks very nice except for the weak turrets. Thanks for any input as pics of the Pennsylvania in 41 are few and far between.