The Ship Model Forum

Hi Ken,
I remember Orel had her torpedo nets when she left Kronstadt at the beginning of the voyage (seen in photographs), deployed her torpedo nets during practice in the Baltic and on reaching the area near Isle Ste Marie off Madagascar . Damage to a torpedo net shelf and part of the net unravelling during the battle of Tsushima is also mentioned and can be seen in photographs of her. So I think they would have been installed for the whole journey.

edit I checked "On Orel at Tsushima" and am not sure if it says the nets were re-installed in Tintingue bay in Madagascar (i.e. the nets had been removed previously) or it means something else, perhaps the rigging for the nets? Perhaps one of our Russian friends can help? From that period on, I am sure "Orel" must have had her nets due to the perceived threat of a night torpedo attack like the one at Port Arthur.

Hello everyone.
Quotes mostly from "On Orel at Tsushima"
About torpedo nets for kenuf:

23.09.04 I returned to the "OREL" only five minutes before lowering the flag. In the evening Suvorov`s signal ordered the ships to project out torpedo nets. After fist sea transfer Orel`s net disagreed to leave the side, opposing the capstan. Had to use a steam boat, pulling the nose pole with rope. Only when the boat gave the thirst and tore the cable as a string, rusted hinge of the first pole finally turned, pole left the side and pulled a rest poles, after which the net plopped into the water off the shelves as fully spreaded curtain.
( I think it was first time "OREL" used his nets. But other ships had some sea practice.)
02.10.04 Leaving Libau. Yesterday, before running the flag, all the battleships, standing on the raid on the high seas, having the signal from the "Suvorov", projected out torpedo nets.
02.12.04 Stormy weather for few days, unsuccessful tries of coaling, almost all ships, trying to coal, were damaged ... deformed left side net shelves on "OREL".
20.12.04 Before sunset "Borodino" spotted in the open ocean vessels, that quickly disappeared. Not having high-speed scouts, we could not figure out under what flag were these vessels. In order not to remain in the strait, where the danger of an attack was threatened on two sides, the admiral decided to ignore the formal compliance with the French neutrality and chose a new parking, more convenient for preventing attacks, although the bay Tang Tang certainly was in the territorial waters of France. Here we begin serious preparations to repel a possible attack of the enemy. Command was received from Admiral: "All vessels, including coal miners and the hospital's "OREL", to stand at night without lights, guns have charged, spotlights - ready. To avoid mistakes, cancel steam boat patrolling." Next, at 15:00 followed by a new order: "Prepare nets on combat ships on the starboard side." Meanwhile, on the ironclads during a campaign nets were removed, all the poles and their attachments disarmed.(net rigging disassembled and stored.) Overboard devices were badly damaged while coaling, and all parts rusted from the action of salt water and lack of care. The work began with feverish haste, but progressed very slowly. Meanwhile in 17:00 followed by a new order from "Suvorov" : " Also prepare nets on the left side.". Ship`s "Over all" followed and the whole crew continued this work. It was necessary to assemble and throw a net before the running of the flag, as later quickly comes the impenetrable darkness, while any illumination is forbidden. Work was ended by groping. Net was eqipped and projected only on the starboard side, while the left net was in disorder. Meanwhile, the evening breeze from the shore turned the ship at anchor, unprotected left side facing the sea. Only at midnight the tide turned the "OREL" starboard side to the sea, and the commander sighed calmly. Our neighbor "Oslabya" completely failed his work and could not deploy the nets.
21.12.04 In the bay of Tang-tang. At the sides the torpedo-nets are rockedby the waves. (From Libau to Tsushima by E.Politovskii).
Battle: The shell hit side armor under the rear 12-inch turret. Blast and shrapnel destroyed shelves on a long distance, torned out a pole, throwed nets around, tearing it to pieces.

Something for cerberusjf:
07.10.04 Worried, went upstairs and stayed for another hour on the wing of the middle bridge near the spotlight.

Hello Ironclad!


Thank you very much for this, I was not sure what had been disassembled



It is very odd, I have never seen a searchlight on the middle bridge. Kostenko appears to be very reliable. I am not sure how to interpret it. The only searchlights I have seen were 2 on the upper forward bridge, 2 on the upper aft bridge and in the bow and stern (on the plans).

But thanks very much again for this.

Hey Ironclad!
Ok, if nets were removed how to reconcile those sentences: "Meanwhile, on the ironclads during a campaign nets were removed, all the poles and their attachments disarmed.(net rigging disassembled and stored.)" and: "Battle: The shell hit side armor under the rear 12-inch turret. Blast and shrapnel destroyed shelves on a long distance, torned out a pole, throwed nets around, tearing it to pieces."?
Or am I missing something here?

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

...

Thanks John, it wasn't clear from the text. And thanks to Ironclad for the translation

About searchlights on the middle bridge... Ironclad's quote comes from "On Orel at Tsushima" correct? I am not saying anything new here but, according to the photos of Orel after capture, searchlights weren't destroyed... And no trace of them on the middle bridge...

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hello all!
1. Torpedo nets. Sorry for my poor English. Some used words are wrong. As I see, information about 20.12.04 unreadable. Well, somewhere on transfer from Libau to Tintingue bay nets and net rigging where removed, disassembled and stored inside battleships. If I understand Kostenko, poles were left on sides of battleships.



At Tintingue bay 20.12.04 crew can not fully reassemble and deploy nets, but next day(days) work was complete.

(As I understand, from 20.12.04 to 14.05.05 nets were installed.)

During battle 14.05.05 nets were installed.

2. Searchlight of "OREL". I think it was a little and movable one. Maybe it was borrowed (for a while) from ship torpedo or steam boat. (Year ago I read some discussion about it on Russian forum. According to Kostenko, ship torpedo boat was eqipped with searchlight.) From distance pillar for little searchlight can look like pillar for rangefinder. And middle bridge wings are a good place for extra searchlights.
p.s. quotes correct, but translation...
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You did just fine Ironman. I simply should have read it more carefully

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Ironclad,
Thank you very much for clarifying things, I had misread what you'd written

What you say about the small searchlight makes sense. I had thought that the use of the boat's searchlight was an improvisation because the main searchlights were not functional.

It is curious that a pillar can be seen in early photos of "Borodino" and "Knyaz Suvorov", but not on any photo of "Orel" I have seen. It is a small puzzle

Can you tell me the forums where this was discussed please?
Thanks
John

John, could you tell me more about not functional searchlights on Borodinos? I mean, where did you get this info from and if they haven't been working from the start or stopped working at some point?

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

...

John, I have asked because I can't really make heads or tails about searchlights on middle bridge. Quote which Ironman provided is dated as 07.10.04. That is only 5 days after 2nd Squadron left Libava... So, IF there were seachlights on the on the middle bridges of Borodinos, they were there almost from the beginning (if not from the beginning) of the voyage. And yet I can't find a single photo of Orel (the very subject of the quote) with a searchlights or even anything resembling searchlight base on the middle bridge.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hello All!
Cerberusjf, I absolutely can not remember where I read it and I can not find it now, but I think there was no information, maybe two questions without answers. Maybe somebody else can help.

Torpedo nets: Transfer from Nossi-Be to Kamranh Bay. Kamranh Bay: As soon as we had anchored, the torpedo nets were attached (during voyage they were removed). (SEMENOV. RASPLATA (THE RECKONING) LONDON, JOHN MURRAY, 1909, Chapter 8, page 419 ))

About not functional searchlights: DariusP, I just wanted to write information, that Cerberusjf posted Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:34 pm. It was written about boat searchlights, mounted on ships - they were spotting torpedoboats at the distance of torpedo attack, when it`s too late to repel. Meanwhile, their light was seen from long distance. Small searchlights were good on steamboats, but not in the role of big ship`s searchlights. ( I can`t find source of information, but I`m searching.)

Near Madagascar Rozestvenski organized group of ship`s torpedoboats under command of captain Semenov. Purpose of this group: during voyage - patrolling duty, during battle ( In calm weather ) - torpedo attack of the enemy. Then followed big training. Every night Semenov was leading group away from squadron. Then group was spreading and each boat was operating independently, but being part of the group and playing it`s role, according to insructions. They learned to use different tactics, "hiding from searchlights and crawling", trying to "desroy" target ships. Both "sides" - ironclads and torpedoboats crews obtained some useful experience at launching and repelling of attacks.( Kostenko 17.02.05 ), (SEMENOV. RASPLATA (THE RECKONING) LONDON, JOHN MURRAY, 1909, Chapter 5, pages 359-364))
While training, eqipment and organisation was tested. I think, that boat searchlights were called almost useless as a result ot this training.( Edit: looks like wrong idea.)
Now I am looking for more information.

Thanks very much for the information, Ironclad. I will re-read "Rasplata".

Just to clarify Ironman: I very much appreciate informations that you have provided it's just that (as you have said yourself) this information is incomplete. So we all are after the same thing: to make sense from the fragments of the information available

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Previously I posted quote from Semenov about torpedo nets. ( 2.04.05. Squadron just arrived to Kamranh Bay )
In both books 1909 and 1910: SEMENOV. RASPLATA (THE RECKONING) LONDON, JOHN MURRAY, quote looks like "As soon as we had anchored, the torpedo nets were got out (at sea they were kept stowed away)." ( End of chapter 8 )
But in the Russian text Semenov wrote " Immediately after anchoring we begin "tying to", nets. On voyage were "untied from". A little difference. Better to clear it now to avoid future questions.
I am very glad to help, DariusP, because You All really trying to Restore Borodino ships.
And many thanks to kenuf for His great question.

We owe an ENORMOUS debt to our Russian friends who have helped us a great deal along the way, including you. Without that help, we would still be floundering in the dark and going round in circles . So, thank you very much to everyone who's helped over the past few years!

Of course, in turn, Russian friends are in the same debt to the Crew of this forum. Thank You very much for amazing Research and for Restoration of the view of interesting and famous Russian ironclads.
Finally, all information goes to world modellers, helping them (and us, of course ) to build detailed models. Working together, we can do much more, than alone researcher can do.

New information:
Searchlights:
Few shells hit nose part of the ship...destroyed nose searchlight. ... All six unprotected searchlighs on bridges were destroyed. ( Kostenko, Chapter: Analysing battle and defeat.) ( Edit: looks like he means 4 on bridges, 1 on aft mast and 1 in nose )
40-santimeter searchlight, unmounted from mine-boat, was raised from mine storage to bridge, and a cable was placed for him. But his power was found weak and this caused to refuse from his usage. Light of this searchlight was unable to find enemy destroyers, but was able to betray our presence to enemy. ( Kostenko, Chapter: Analysing battle and defeat.)

OREL ... wasn`t using battle illumination for other reason. From six our searchlights none was in order. Although the taken efforts to protect them from fragments, all of them were destroyed. Decided to use the searchlights, removed from boats and hidden at the bottom of the vessel. They were lifted, and mine specialists, under command of Lt. Modzalevsky, connected them with cables. But the light was so weak, that he had not justified its destination and only attracted the enemy.To the great disappointment of superiors and team we had to refuse from battle lighting. But as we learned later it was for our sake.( Novikov-Priboy )

The Pillar: When You discovered this pillar on the forward bridge, there was a discussion on Russian forum. ( I think - tsushima forum, but now I can not find this discussion. ) Most people told it is a pillar for rangefinder, but one men told, that it may be the pillar for boat searchlight, mounted at that night. Maybe small searchlights were mounted on spare rangefinder`s pillars.

p.s. Somebody solved the riddle of elevator head protection?

It is very kind of you to say this, but we owe our Russian friends far more than we have given in return

I hope so



I have made a mistake. Borodino type ships had the 6th searchlight on the main mast, not on the stern. I was thinking of Bouvet.

I have also seen "something" on the middle bridge. But it is never clear what it is. It is either in the distance or covered in canvas. But to me, it looks more like a compass, as shown on the plans. If there are any photos showing a pillar here, I would be very interested to see them.



Yes, this was in tsushima.ru . This website has now disappeared and been replaced by a new website, tsushima.su I did not read any discussions about this pillar. It would be interesting to see it. I think it is a rangefinder pillar. But there was no rangefinder on it. So, perhaps it could be something else



Unfortunately, not that I know.

I think those where rangefinder bases as well and that, since salt water and delicate (and expensive) optics don't mix, rangefinders (IMO) would NOT have been mounted unless they had to be The ones high up on the superstructures were less exposed but those on mid bridge's wings would have been pretty vulnerable!

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken