The Ship Model Forum

Thanks for clearing that up the issue of the green anti fouling paint for me

That somehow merits the next question; any opinions on the shade of the famous "gray green" of the Russian ships in the Pacific during the Russo-Japanese war?

Zvezda gives "Field Grey" as a colour - I was thinking on using something close to the PC10 used on British planes during WWI. But maybe that is too light and too green?

//Magnus

_________________
** lurking after abandoning all projects **

Hi
Vectorcut make wooden replacement decks for Zvezda's Varyag among others, so I e-mailed them to see if they were planning a Borodino deck. They replied that they had no plans as they didn't have a reliable plan to work from.

I'm not sure if this was a polite way of saying "no" or if they were interested in doing it. So I was considering sending them a builder's deck plan of the Borodino I kindly received via a member of this list (I'm sure you know the plan) but before I do I was wondering

1 if there was any interest for this among the members here?
2 if anyone would object to me sending them the Borodino plans?
3 If anyone think that the Borodino plans are not accurate in some way.


I think it would make a difference to the kit,. You can see their stuff here..

http://www.vectorcut.com/ships.htm

Thanks
John

Magnus,

I would give my ideas below and if I am wrong would be happy if someone corrects me.

This paint was originally called "sharovaya kraska" in Russian.

I have a paper model of Steregyuschiy destroyer from Port Arthur squadron. I understand it is painted in this paint. If you send me a private message I can reply to you with a page out of if with some parts painted in this paint for you to get the idea. You shall print it out to see since this paint looks different on computer monitor and on actual paper.

It is dark grey and also a little greenish (unfortunately I have no idea of PC10 paint).

If you think to apply this paint for Suvorov I do not know if it was applied on any parts of it. The hull was black according to my info.

I have seen paintings of Askold cruiser, Poltava ironclad (battleship) and some others ships painted in this paint (sharovaya kraska). Also I have one artist painting of Varyag during the battle in this paint (Zvezda box art also shows Vyaryag in this color). Varyag red/white hull with yellow funnels is its original scheme (this was chosen for St. Petersburg Museum Model). However there are disputes not resolved what was the color of Varyag during the battle so that I would not risk to paint it grey-green.

Hope this helps.

Yevgeniy

John,

It would be really fantastic to have Vector laser cut decks for this ship. I support you in all.

I actually thought to make real wood strips for Borodino since deck area is not too large (comparatively with my Grosser Kurfurst) so it will not take much time. But if Vector makes wooden deck I will buy it.

If possible, add a request for King George/Prince of Wales deck ) It is really needed there. The deck area on these ships is huge and will really look magestic in real wood. I hope there will be big interest for it also.

In general my idea - the larger is the wood-covered area of the ship, the happier would be a modeller with laser-cut wood deck.

Just my opinion.

Yevgeniy

John - when you say: "I am curious to find out what kind of reels" what is it exactly that you are curious about?

As for Jean-Paul idea: we don't have to go for all 5 ships at once. That would be a daunting task indeed! So how about starting with Borodino and Orel (for example) and than moving onto the next subject?

I like the idea of Zviezda's model as a starting reference point but, in the same way, we also need a set of drawings as a common reference too. How about Malkov's? They are not perfect by any means but IMO the are the best I have seen so far. Plans of Borodino type offered by "modelyard.narodu.ru" are abysmal and I haven't yet seen the set offered by "navarin.ru".

I would love to have laser cut deck for Borodino! I hope that Vectorcut isn't opposed "in principle" to an idea of making such a product since a deck for Borodino wouldn't be any less exotic a subject than a deck for Variag!


Yevgeniy - unfortunatelly gloss paint on model warship is indeed considered a bit of a "no no". Also, if you plan to display your model painted this way, you might find yourself having to explain again and again that model is painted gloss not through slopiness or the lack of knowledge but because you wanted it exactly that way... But hey, if you set your heart on a gloss finish, than go for it

masch3 - "Port Arthur" painting scheme is a long and convoluted subject* but to cut the long story short: the "warpaint" green (or grey/green) was achieved by mixing 4 parts olive, 1 part soot (black) and 2 parts ochre. But, since the original source doesn't specify what sort of olive was "olive" and what sort of ochre was "ochre", we can only speculate about what it really looked like. So go for whatever shade of grey/green best suit you and ask the doubters to prove you wrong!

- EDIT - As Yevgeniy writes above, Variag's colour during her last fight is indeed disputable. She was re-painted in some sort of "overall" colour (there is a photo of her painted like that) but nobody knows for sure just what colour it was!

* I can give you all the gory details if you REALLY insist....

Thanks for the +ve feedback on the possibility of a Vectorcut deck everyone, I'll contact them again and see of they're still interested after I offer the plan. I'll keep you posted. I'll also ask about KGV and PW, but I would guess a deck that size is going to be -expensive!!!!

Darius, I sent you a copy of the navarin.ru plans on Saturday. They should be with you by now in theory, but maybe there are still delays after the strike. I don't know how bad the narod plans are, it would be interesting to know which ones are worse/better!! Navarin do some good plans, but Borodino could be better IMHO.

Yevgeniy, the model from the museum is very nice, I like the gloss finish on it too. But I think gloss finishes are best on large or large scale models of glossy subjects, (1/10 cars or trains, that sort of thing). I think things look more matt the smaller the scale, so if the model in the museum is 1/30, a 1/350 model would have to be more matt to have a similar appearance, like a satin finish. I think a gloss finish also tends to highlight any shortcomings of a kit and would make it look more "toy-like". But it's completely up to you of course!!! If you really want to amke it look like the museum model, I would suggest getting the WEM photo-etch set if you don't have it already. Looking at it I think they have based it almost entirely on this model.

Darius, what I mean is I am an anorak enough to like to know what things do on a model. I suppose when it omes down to ir on a model, a reel is a reel, but I do like to know- okay I'm a nerd

Btw for those who do not want to know the results of the torpedo net shelf width, look away now.....

For those who do, GMM shelf came in at 1.71mm, WEM came in at 2.30mm, making GMM the winner on this occasion!! Well, I'm excited..

Well John, there is a way to satisfy your curiosity but not an easy one. A full set of builders drawings of a ship includes one or more sheets which deal with the ship's rigging (both standing and running if I allowed to borrow sailing ship terminology). So, in theory, it is possible to have your question answered. But, of course, getting hold of those drawings is another cattle of fish altogether...

I am glad that at least one of the net shelf contenders was up to the task! Wouldn't if be frustrating if both of them turned to be not quite right?

I made an error with the funnel heights, (I looked at the wrong coordinate). From a plan of Orel I have I now calculate that the funnels at 1/350 should be 4.50cm high and 1.22 cm wide. I tried it with another plan, of Suvorov and got 4.10 cm high and 1.17 wide (?) I was wondering if anyone knows which is right?

Thanks
John

Those plans would be the holy grail, and probably about as easy to get
And yes it's quite satisfying to find that one is correct, especialy if it's the one you like

Btw, I was wondering of you could let me kowwhat the Malkov drawings are.. is it the set with Borodino deck, Orel deck , Orel side, Suvorov side and I Alexander side?

Thanks
John

John, is it Orel or Borodino funnels' height that you are after? Rememember that Orel's funnels were taller than Borodino's! Also keep in mind that, althrough on any particular ship tops of both funnels reached to the same level, the forward one was sited higher than the aft one and so the "above the base" part of the first one was shorter than the second!

Your question caused me to check kit's funnels and their bases and I have just realised that the base of the forward funnel is another area badly screwed up by Eastern Express!

Last but not least - do you have any more photos of (or links to) the model of Slava that you have posted not so long ago?

John,

Thank you for what most important fair opinion on glossy appearance. I fully share it and understand that glossy appearance for small objects would make it toy-like. I did not plan it - my references are just a demo what I would like to have. I will try experimenting glossy paint+matt lacque or matt paint + semi-gloss lacque on some scrap. May be all matt but not my favourite enamel paints - I read an article on Modellmarine (understood 40% as by Deutsch is only fledging) on Revell Aqua Paint - an observer said that he received "mirrow-like" surface with matt Aqua paint. Have not seen yet in Ukraine hobby shops.

Definitely I will not proceed with Borodino without WEM PE.

And thanks for asking about KGV/PoW laser cut deck. My opinion if Vector is fair the price for PoW deck shall not be double/triple price of Varyag deck - they have a lot of constant values on self-cost calculation not depending on the size. The only variable for the size is the cost of wood and work which is peanuts compared to constant values such as machine depreciation/interest rate/salaries/taxes/marketing/storage/transportation and desired mark-up. I hope they will be reasonable (+5-10% would be OK ).

Yevgeniy

Yevgeniy
I got a reply from Dave at Vector cut re PoW decks..looks promising...

"Yes, its on my list. I will do a PoW sometime after I get one finished for the new Revell Bismarck. Might be a while as my day job comes first, unfortunately!

Thanks for your interest

Dave"

and about Borodino decks he says

" I was working with Steve Nutall on a deck and brass barrels project before his untimely death. Put the project aside then. Who's the draftsman on your plans set? I may have the same one."

I've sent him the plans so keeping fingers crossed...



Darius
Btw yes I think it is an excellet idea to cmopare the ships with a reference set of plans and the ones from Malkov are far better than many /any that I've seen.

I know what you mean about the funnels starting at different heights, but the saving grave is that for the Borodino it doesn't matter as it didn't have the "square base" on the fore funnel, it just went straight into the deck. The square base can be hidden behind a bulkhead that should run along this part, but is strangely missing from the kit. It could also be cut off the roof, finished off and glued onto the deck for Orel, but I have decided not to do her after all. Well, maybe just for fun.

And I had a funny feeling you were going to say that the ships all had different height funnels..

I have about 50 photos of the Slava model, found from the net and from other sources, ..

here are the first 10, hope they open properly..

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3gexjxcbuky&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=5ydymame0if&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=1hv3ydmbqy0&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=fumayxxpyt1&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3oygygzm4xz&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=2mz25htttre&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=dclnm31ydy2&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=81coy0244xy&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=dm1rotvbpyb&thumb=4

one of the ten didn't upload properly so here it is..
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=8gio9j1yjba&thumb=4

some more

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=am2q9xntg1w&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=1yt3t5mt5zd&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3mqgdfvkmn1&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=aj2dnxrm4na&thumb=4

Personally I think it is an amazing model.

John, Borodino's drawings arrived today (much appreciated!) and even though, in the limited time I had, I have spotted some errors (could you please list ones that you have noticed?), so, while I don't think that this is a bad set, Malkov's one might be a better starting point. How about cross-referencing Malkov's set with the builders drawings and Navarin's one, adding our possible corrections and trying to come up with something we all can live with?

Yes there is no bulkhead and the edges where the "funnel deck" meets superstructure sides are straight instead of rounded.

Hold your horses I didn't say that "all ships had different height funnels" but that Orel's funnels where taller than Borodino's. According to Malkov funnels of Orel, Suvorov and Aleksander III were of the same height but, since I didn't do any checking for myself, I can't say if I agree or disagree.

Thanks for the pics of Slava. Indeed what a great model!!!

thanks for great news on Vector's plans to make deck for PoW,
Hope it will be also for Borodino. Otherwise will do wood strips deck for Borodino - for PoW it would have taken me half a year which I am not prepared to do.

Yevgeniy

Hi Darius,
I had a quick look at them and came up with a list. Sorry about the lack of nautical terminology, I've forgotten half of it

Here goes



Left to right,

Sheet 1
Aft elevation
1- The stern 75mm battery guns should point forward in this view. They all ran in an anticlockwise position except for the bow battery, where they all pointed forward ( this is true far all of the class except for Slava, where all 75mm guns went anticlockwise)-!!NB This information is flawed see Darius' comments below
2- They have a solid bulwark above the aft 152mm turret, which should be railings
3- They made a slight error with the stairs to the aft compass platform- they should open onto the platform, not right up against the compass
4- there should be a ladder running down the outside of the hull running from the top of the hull side to the top of the central 75mm battery
just forward of the aft 152 turret.
5- The access doorway on the ship side should be slightly wider and should open slightly higher up
6- All the 47mm guns are missing
7- There should be a vertical ladder running down the outside of the hull aft of the mid 152 turret, running from the top of the hull to the top of the central 75mm battery


I am not convinced by the ropes going all the way to the top of the funnel, but keeping an open mind


(on the plus side they have correctly changed the bulwark they had in the 2004 drawings by the aft 152mm guns to a railing and added stairs and the companionway, which looks a little narrow though.

Sheet 2
Forward elevation
1- Scuttles in the heads (behind the forward 152mm turret) should be lower and their position isa bit off. The forward one should be right forward, right at the edge.
2- All the 47mm guns are missing
3- There should be a ladder running on the outside of the hull from the conning tower deck to the top of the midship battery
4- Boat handling crane base is located in the wrong place, should be further aft
5- There should be two ladders running down the outside of the hull in front of the forward 152mm turret, one running from the deck to lower deck , the other to torpedo net shelf
6- They missed the notch in the anchor bay, just forward of the aft anchor
(They have added the torpedo net davit as a detail,) since 2004

Sheet 3
Aft deck plan
The deck they show is a copy of Orel, not Borodino. But they have also made quite a few errors when copying it., for example they have planking were there should be a deck house roof,, they show matching large hatches port and starboard when the stbd one is much smaller, there are too many small mistakes to be bothered with as it’s not the correct ship.

LOL now I wish I had more than a cursory look before stating about Navarin's set that "I don't think that this is a bad set".

I will not have a chance to look at those drawings properly until this weekend but I have already noticed few more errors on Sheet 1 (Aft Elevation):
1- wrong size and positioning of windows in the cabin inboard of aft 152mm turret,
2- no windows in two cabins on the platform above,
3- the platform on which compass platform stands extends too far to the right,
4- ropes don't go all the way up to the top of the funnel. It is funny actually: the drawer drew (correctly) a funnel ring just under the funnel cap (that's where ropes should be attached) but then just went ahead and connected the ropes to the top of the funnel!

And now two questions:

1- access doorway to the ship's side..... do you have a photo which would clearly show that it did not reach all the way to the top in Borodino and Orel? Malkov shows it that way, builders model in St Petersburg museum shows it that way and, more importantly, in Mielnikov's book "Battleship of the Borodino type" there is a photo of Borodino's hull right after launch which appears to show it that way as well....

2- 75mm stern battery - I was under the impression that anticlockwise rule for aft battery applayed only to Suvorov and Aleks.III. Builders drawings of 4 Borodinos seems to support my impression... Do you have a photo which would show otherwise?

Yes I take it back about the doors not going all the way to the top, they do, in fact I'd already changed it...

The part about the anitlockwise guns is something I read somewhere and always believed, can't remember where off-hand. It is true of the central battery, can't find a good photo of the 4 sisters we're discussing to show one way or the other, not yet anyway


just checked and you're right again, builder's drawings of Orel have all rear gus pointing sternward!! Where did I pick that information up from???

Well, it still holds true for Suvorov and Aleksander III as well as central batteries of Orel and Borodino

I noticed last night that the side access doorways on Suvorov and Alexander III were closed at the top but Borodino and Orel weren't... It's one of those things that I've thought were closed for all of them for years and suddenly notice that they'er not, then eventually forget and have to re-learn.. arrgghh

Imp Alexander close-up

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=2z8alcuc1zd&thumb=4

Imp Alexander whole photo

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=ann8bjtjgr2&thumb=4

Knyaz Suvorov whole, (they close-up didn't upload properly)

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3jaidpjm3ja&thumb=4

And good evidence of Orel's rear-pointing guns, well as good as I've found.. I haven't found anything for Borodino..

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=14acngkdwo9&thumb=4