The Ship Model Forum

Hello Darius,

to 1)
There are / were 5 things telling this:
a) A Russian colleague with same intrest in Russian Navy told me during a discussion about cruiser Varyag (1904) depending to question about hull color when Varyag was re-painted from Wihite to grey in Port Arthur (question was: During overhauling in drydock of Port Arthur, was hull repainted from green to hull red?). His saying was that white peace time paint was mostly in Baltic with green hull.
b) A Russian book of colleague above telling this (he showed during discussion) - title I give you when I get answer from him
c) in a Russian forum it was told by someone - link I will search and give soon when found again. A little bit difficult to reply search because Russian language
d) 2 colleagues who are / were at German Navy Intelligence confirmed that Russian vessels of Baltic Fleet during cold war often changed their colors often, including a green hull color ...
e) another colleague who served in East German Navy on a Tarantul class ship told same as colleagues of d) + that this was often seen on Russian mine sweepers (/ layers

Sure, d) and e) are depending to modern Russian / Soviet Navy, but colleagues told that this was given since Tsar time of Russian Navy in Baltic Sea.

to 2)
Depending on you big knowledge you showed, I trust you full, so please no miss-understandings Darius and I'm very thankfull that you confirmed what I thought too.
I wanted only to show you how a guy as I with still less experience at ships can become confused when starting investigations about things. You know saying: If you ask 3 "experts", you get 5 different answers...

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The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Christian, I have written my previous post in the morning and I had to rush to work so let return to something that that I have forgotten to mention last time. The established wisdom is that Baltic Fleet pacetime colours were: black hull, red hull bottom, white superstructure and buff funnels. White hulls and buff funnels were peacetime colours of Far Easten Fleet. Borodinos were painted white (with buff funnels) for sea trials only and than were re-painted into "Tsushima colours".

During discussions about Russian ships of the period on this forum we also had contributions from very knowledgable Russian colleagues and opinion was that story of the green hull has probably started with very old (1970s) drawing of Variag (!) with white hull and green bottom in Modelist Konstructor magazine. No proof was ever offered and author's plans of Variag were quite innacurate. Since than green bottomed Variag pops up over and over again and no proof is ever offered. I have also seen drawings and models of Retvizan with green bottom and, while it's not impossible that both ships could have their bottoms painted green at some point in their career, I would like to see some actual proof first.

So much for Variag and Retvizan but all ships of Baltic Fleet? Variag was never part of Baltic Fleet!

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hello Darius,

these are clear words about hull color I searched all the time.
About Varyag and green hull color, I think it is also a guilt of Zvezda telling this in instruction of kit for both, white peacetime and grey wartime paint. But she wasn't part of Baltic Fleet you say? I thought she was, because starting her travel to Far East from Baltic Sea with stopps here and there.

However, this is why I like this forum so much, because if there is a "?" flying above head of someone, you get answer soon from expert about issue as you did now for me and my several "?" over my head. Thank you very much again!

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Good morning everybody,



A small clarification: Varyag was repainted not to grey, but to dark olive colour.

All Borodinos had the red hull bottoms.
This fact is confirmed by authentic (orginal) documents from the State Navy Archive, and the memories of the participants in those events.

Varyag and Retvizan had the green hull bottom only in the initial phase of his careers, when they came to Russia from the United States, from the shipbuilding plant, where they were built.
Therefore, the “very old (1970s) drawing of Variag (!) with white hull and green bottom in Modelist Konstructor magazine” was correct, but only for a certain period of time.

Best regards

LOL Kronma, you have a talent for appearing just at the right moment! Thanks

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

As Kronma has pointed out, Variag (and the rest of Port Arthur squadron) was repainted into dark olive "battle colour" at the outbreak of hostilities. But the exact shade of this dark olive is unknown and very much discussed


Variag spend only about 4 months in Baltic undergoing further trials and excercises before her trip to Port Arthur via Mediterranean so no, she never was a part of Balric Fleet.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Wow ... Great help, thank!

But, sorry to ask now, what kind of color is this "dark olive" ... means making comparsion to something, is it like this Olive Drab of US Army / Nato standard before 3 tone scheme or something else?
Also now again a little bit confusing, because I thought it was always a color like "Panzergray" in wartime, as also instructions of for example Zvezda tells.

It is special helpfull and also now important for me, because I ordered 1/350 Retvizan of Combrig as first Resin kit and without your informations here, I had her painted in Dark Grey (I know, kit discription tells 1902 version, but I will make her in 1904 outfit).

And finally, not the correct place, i know, but because still in building process of Zvezda's Sevastopol (Gangut class) and before I make any major mistake at painting: Sevastopol of WW-1 (about 1914-1916) was painted grey as Zvezda instruction tells ... or also this dark olive in reality?

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Sevastopol was grey. The only ships painted in dark olive colour were ships of Port Arthur squadron in 1904-1905.

There is no answer to your question about what kind of colour was "dark olive". We know that it was called "dark olive" and was made of mixture of 39puds 52funts* (obvious typo there since 1pud = 40funts) of olive paint, 19puds 20funts of ochre and 9puds 8funts of soot (black) - Mielnikov "Ironclad Tsesarevich" vol.1 page 43 and 45. We don't know what sort of olive was olive and what sort of ochre was ochre

* it's not a typo.We are talking Russian "funt" and not British "pound" here: 1pud = 40funts = about 16.38kilograms

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Good to know that grey, thanks. You know, when Zvezda makes mistake at painting for Varyag, it was possible that maybe at Sevastopol too.

I think I understand the result what this mixture you name should give as result. Hos shall I describe it... something beetween that Russian dark green as can be found on Pre- WW2 planes of Red Airforce and that Green of German Wehrmacht Uniform Jackets, also depending for weatherimg effects too. However, thank you Darius.

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Well, Falk Pletcher did some experiments with those ingredients and got different results depending on what sort of ochre and olive were used.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

I heard about, other did too. Point is that there are and were much experiments about several Russian Military colors, because as older it wents back, as more difficult it becomes because lacking any real standards. But there is a Russian Uniform Green existing which is relative standard and where some people think it is base color of many other green colors. The ochre is the real key as you told, because there are 4 or 5 sorts possible and which go from yellow up to a buff tone.
In the past I made several experiments for Russian military vehicles and guns to get the "correct" tone and also I have a friend who makes planes and did same way there. I will check it out when building Varyag a second time or when starting Retzivan in some months (in moment is Sevastopol in Yard, after this or as brother building IJN Mikasa for the first).

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Christian, don't you think that it might be a good idea for you to edit your post about Variag's colours in CASF Cruisers section?

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Indeed Darius ... done!

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hello,

sorry if this question was inside the last 47 pages here, I didn't saw it...

What is the difference between Borodino from Zvezda and Borodino from Eastern Express (both 1/350)? Does anyone know?
Point is that looking on some shops, the Zvezda kit is about 20 EUR, the Eastern Express kit is about 40-50 EUR!

Cheers,
Christian

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Borodino from Zvezda is repack Eastern Express

Before you buy Zviezda's (or EE) Borodino model I would strongly advise you to at least skim through this thread Christian. You REALLY have no idea of effort required to make even relatively diecent model of Borodino from this kit...

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

So same content in different boxes only ... will be fine to know why all the shops I know in Internet take for Eastern Express kit the double of price of Zvezda kit... Strange

Hi Darius,

I read ... much to do at least, but it is also a matter who decent I will take it at least. Any good alternative kit is not available (I also read that Combrig Borodino class kit is full of errors at this and that details). I will see what to do at least and where I can agree that error is inside.

Cheers,
Christian

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Consider yourself warned

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Danger is my second firstname Darius ...

Jokes away...
Of course I read what else is not so correct at kit, but at least, kit looks in general like a Borodino class and not like Yamato or Bismarck ... or has one funnel too much or is in scale far away to be 1/350 scale. There are of course errors and things which could be improved or re-changed, but which kit does this not have / which kit is without "mistakes"? Even at some kits which were rated to be mostly accurate and correct, suddenly a guy started to make rebuildings and scratch things on it, that you can only think that kit is at leas only crap.
One example where I do not find the link in moment, was with Revell or Tamiya Bismarck (not sure which one) n 1/350. Here a guy re-built with plastic card and other things nearly the complete upper structure above deck level and maybe 10-15% of parts were at least from kit used ... so conclusion is that kit is total inaccurate and a worthless dump of *peep*?

I think same is at least with Borodino kit and my opinion is that it is a good base and you can improve known errors as far as you can or as far as you want it. Further and as told, there is no better alternative kit available. I'm warned that there are mistakes = much work as far as I want to and can improve, but I will do my best then.

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.