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 Post subject: Oriol
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:45 am 
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Hey All,

Can any one tell me what the round tube looking areas are at the aft and stern of my Oriol?

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:17 am 
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Torpedo tubes wildspear.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:13 am 
Image
Borodino fitting out, the vertical sides seem slightly darker than the funnels.. but as you say she is fitting out

Image
Knyaz Suvorov spar deck..

my first try..hope it works!!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:27 am 
"Suvorov" spar deck (?) in white?
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=382mspwmjnv&thumb=4

Orel with the side doors open.
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=1xfkmxpxztw&thumb=4

update
images accidentaly deleted, so posted as attachments 6 April 08


Last edited by cerberusjf on Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:48 am 
DariusP this is the picture with the "roof" of the hammock stores in the lower part of the picture, which are to be painted dea blue/grey in the instructions but appear to be the same colour as the sides in this photo.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=9dzdgnjmhdl&thumb=4

ps I meant to say that the vertical surfaces are lighter than the funnels in this photo ..oops!!

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=eoywnzzxmt2&thumb=4

update
photos accidentaly deleted so reposted as attachments. I have also added a photo of Alexandre Mazur's model to indicate where I am asking about the grey blue


Last edited by cerberusjf on Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:40 pm 
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Hello,
maybe I can answer this question...
About the railing on top of the turrets (primary and secondary artillery): I took the ordinary railings, cut 1/3 above; and additionally on the turrets of secondary artillery I added PE net.
I hope that my fotos and drowings will help you.

Orel
Image
Borodino
Image
Aexander III
Image


Last edited by Yuri Logoziak on Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:03 pm 
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Quick correction Yuri: the middle photo is of Borodino and not of Alex.III. Notice that there is a rope railing and not a solid bulwark around 152mm turret.


Now let me comment on the photos that you posted cerberusjf one by one:

1- we both agree: fitting out stage;

2- discounting the fact that it is probably a foto-montage (look how out of proportions to the bodies some of the heads are) I am not convinced that caption is correct. There is not enough details visible to establish what ship it actually is. Notice also that every bit of the superstructure that you can see is painted white so my guess would be that, whatever ship it is, it is painted in standart Russian "overseas" scheme of white hull and superstructure with yellow funnels;
For comparison look at the spare deck area of Orel after the battle: http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1386 ... am1ay1.jpg Even discounting battle damage, everything in sight is painted in the same dark colour.

3- the detail in this photo is not very distinct so I can't be sure, but the white bit that you see can be, IMO, one of two things:
a) white painted inner surface of the open door or
b) since the ship is at an angle and since the doorway cut through hammock storage area what it might be is a white painted wall of a very short corridor behind the doorway. You wouldn't be abble the see opposite side of the ship at this angle anyway (if that's what you were thinking) because engineroom vent gets in the way.
That inner surfaces of the doors and internal corridors were painted white can be seen in this photo of Borodino: http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/276/ ... t01km0.jpg (notice also railing on the aft 152mm turret)

4- I agree with you that this area looks exactly of the same shade as the side of the ship. I don't know how the author of the painting instructions come upon the idea that it should be painted blue/grey......


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:56 pm 
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To clear up situation:
1 foto - Orel
2 foto - Borodino
3 foto - Alexander III
Maybe you anderstand me wrong, becouse I put the 3 foto not just under the signature "Alexander III" And I've corrected it.

Till 1903 in Russian fleet the ships were painted in white color outside and inside. Before war them have recoloured: 1 squadron - in gray-green color, 2 squadron in black color. But internal premises did not recolour. So during the war they have kept factory painting. In grey color outside and inside the ships began to paint after 1905. But they never were inside black.
But I do not think, that it is a photomontage. To whom and what for it was necessary? :jump_1:


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 Post subject: torpedo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:21 pm 
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DariusP,

Thanks for the quick reply. I thought it may be the torpedo tubes but its always nice to have a second opinon.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:25 pm 
Yuri, thanks very much for the photos, it can be quite confusing as some photos show railings clearly and others of the same ship seem to show no railings at all for the secondary turrets. The version of photo 3 I have was ascribed to Borodino so thanks for clearing that up. I have been looking at your model of Knyaz Suvorov and it is really amazing!! Congratualtions, I realy love your diorama.

So is it pretty well settled then that let's say Borodino, Orel, Alexander III and Knyaz Suvorov all had railings on the mid and aft secondary turrets and probably on the fore turrets too?

DariusP, thank again for your reply

Photo 1- yes agreed, absolutely, it just seemed to fit a pattern..

Photo 2- to be honest I don't think it's a photo-montage but it may be a misleading caption, maybe officers of Knyaz Suvorov visiting another ship or just simply a mistake and there's no connection with Suvorov. Yes there is nothing that is very distinctly Knyaz Suvorov in the photos, not for me at least.

Photo 3- What you can see that is white is the short "corridor" leading from the door to the spar deck and forms one side of the hammock store . The inside of the doors are painted black oddly enough, you can maybe make out the rectangular shape and the scuttle either side of the white patch (no, I didn't' think it was the other side of the ship). And from your photo of the Orel yes everything looks the same colour, black- except (incredibly) for that corridor leading to those doors, which looks a white colour. It is in the lower right-hand side of the photo.. I'm pretty sure that's the "corridor".. oh well, it seemed like a nice theory at the time for everything to be white!! But now would it be safe to say that the short "corridor" leading from those doors to the quarter deck on Orel was painted white?

Photo 4- it looks the same colour to me too, I'm tempted to ignore the instructions for this area and paint all black. It looks like my model will be even blacker than the instructions say, which wasn't what I'd set out to do - oh well!!

Thanks for your replies Yuri and DariusP


Last edited by cerberusjf on Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:15 pm 
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Yuri - yes, I got confused about photos you have posted. Sorry about that.
Now about the colours: Russian ships before Russo-Japanese weren't uniformly painted white overall with yellow funnels. The same ships which sported white scheme can be seen in another photos with variants of "victorian" scheme (so popular at the time) of black hull, white superstucture and white turrets with black roofs. But when those ships were re-painted in "war paint" even the ships which were white before the war were re-painted not only outside but also inside! Funnel bases, ventillators, cabins, boat's supports, boat's davits, skylights, gangways ect. There are many photos to prove it. If you have Milenikov's "Battleships of Peresvet type" look at the photos on pages 63, 70, 71 and 101 just as an example of what I mean.

Still, Borodinos were exceptional. It appears that only Aleksander III was actually ever re-painted since it was the only ship of this class photographed in overall white with yellow funnels during trials. Rest of the class appears to have left their respective yards already sporting 2nd Pacific Squadron scheme of overall black with yellow funnels. I have yet to see a photo of Borodino, Orel or Suvorow painted in any other way...


cerberusjf - yes we can certainly agree about corridor and 152mm turrets railing :thumbs_up_1: :big_grin:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:01 am 
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Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
Suvorov:
http://ifolder.ru/672115


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:04 am 
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Plenty of pretty Russian girls Yuri but no Suvorov... First I was told that to see the film ( what film?) I have to visit site's sponsors?! When I tried to serch for file 672115 I was informed that it was removed.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:44 am 
Hi,
after seeing Orel's boat deck I wrestled with my concience I decided to try to find out what the real arrangement was- big mistake!! I have gone through everything I have and am none the wiser. Nothing seems to make sense!! The plans from Melnikov's book seem to show a deckhouse at full height in the section but that's not what the photo shows. Also they show sort of alcoves in the conning tower at deck level behind the main turret, is this correct for Orel? Is there anywhere where you can find all the correct information for each ship? It feels like I'm going round in circles at the moment.

Thanks in advance
John


Last edited by cerberusjf on Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:22 am 
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Hi,
Suvorov and Alexander III

http://modelships.narod.ru/modelships.narod.ru.index


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:39 am 
Thanks very much Yuri,
that's interesting- so it looks like I was wrong about the railings on the secondary turrets. Knyaz Suvorov and I Alexander III had 1/2 height railings on the secondary turrets whereas Borodino and Orel had full height 2 bar rope railings on theirs. Slava is another story. I'm surprised with all the little (and big) differences there are between the two sister types.

Does anyone know what those "wheels" under the guns in front of the conning tower are (just behind the main turret). Are they hose reels, rope reels or valves of some kind? Any one know??

Also does anyone know the correct width for the torpedo net shelf? The one from GMM is much narrower than the WEM one. The WEM has the little brackets which are correct but to my eye looks a little wide. I prefer the width of the GMM, but that doesn't mean it's correct and it seems to be missing from all the plans I have. Anyone know the answer?

Finally I've seen on some plans that there are scuttles on the upper part of the anchor beds for Borodino.. is this correct? I would have thought it a bit of a dangerous place to put scuttles!!

Thanks
John


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:36 am 
maybe the film Yuri means is this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vf1EA0rzxvA&mode=related&search=

A clip from a Japanese-made film from the 60's. Very well done for the time, now let me look closely at the models :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:07 pm 
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John, contact Jim Bumann. I have provided him with Malkov's drawings of all Borodino sisters and I know that he has scans of them which he might share with you. Those drawings should make clearer the superstructure details and how the arrangements on each ship differed from one another.

Now to answer your questions:
1- drawings posted by Yuri are "builders drawings" and no opinion about railing on secondary turrets can be based just upon those. I am not saying that they are incorrect but that they might be. It is only photographic evidence that matters I am affraid....
2- I have no idea what those "wheels" are... I have photo of Alex.III which shows one of them quite well: it is a large metal hoop (empty in the middle) with two short arrowhead-like spurs projecting from the opposite sides of the hoop. Whatever they are, they are fixed to the sides of the base of the main bridge. Spare part of some sort? But what spare part? Not a clue!

3- according to Malkov's drawings the net shelf should be about 1.7mm in 1/350 scale. What is the width of GMM and WEM ones?

4- no scutles on the upper part of the anchor beds in Borodino on any other ship in the class. There were three scutles forward of the anchor bays on Borodino, Orel and Alex.III (all in slightly different positions)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:26 pm 
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I have looked again and again at all the photos in my collection and I am forming an opinion: while Borodino and Orel did have railing on their secondary turrets, Suvorov, Alex.III and Slava might have not.... I have few relative close-ups of the latter three and while I can see railing on their bridges, there is no trace of railings on their recondary turrets! I have also checked photos of "Tsesarevich" and guess what? There was no railings on her secondary turrets either!

And second opinion (much more tentative than the first one): I wonder if there even was the very low level railing on the primary turrets of Suvorov, Alex.III and Slava... Have a look at this well known photo of Slava: http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n96/ ... loseup.jpg do you see any railing (no matter how low level) on the main turret? I have yet to spot main turret's railing on any photos of the three ships mentioned.

Of course, if somebody has a photo which will prove me wrong on any of the above I will gladly stand corrected! :big_grin:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:03 pm 
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I hope my collection of photos and drawings will help you to clear up this question.
I have no doubts that railings were both at the first and secondary turrets. But if it is not visible in some photos, it means that railings could be combined in some cases.
http://borodino-class.narod.ru/index.html

In Russia the conception of sisterships is rather relative. The ships Oriol and Borodino were built at one factory, Suvorov and Alex III were under construction on other. Therefore these ships very much differ, even their length is different.


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