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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:45 pm 
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InchHigh wrote:
Torpedoes make one heck of a geyser, and they explode against the side (contact fuse) or under (magnetic fuse) a ship. Why would a bomb be any different?


A whole lotta reasons. First off, check out this video of a modern Mk 48 ADCAP torpedo hitting a ship. It's designed to explode under the ship, breaking it's back as opposed to the side-hitting contact Type 91 Mod 2 the Japanese dropped at Pearl Harbor. The type 91 Mod 2 had a 452 lbs warhead charge, the Mk 48 has a 650 lbs warhead, The type 91 side hitters, 2/3 the explosive charge by weight as the modern torpedo, and are producing geysers that are easily taller than the US Battleships are long. The larger warhead in the video doesn't produce anything like that at all.

It may be due to differences in depth (more pressure to resist) but we are also talking about a larger warhead. The main factor in the much smaller geyser is the effect of having an object directly above to take that upward shock wave and reflect it. The bomb simply could not push force straight up unless it came out of the ship at an extreme angle and was no longer underneath it when it exploded. Finally, the Type 99 bomb used at Pearl Harbor had a 66 pound explosive charge. It's going to create an air bubble, but it's going to be small and not have much force. It has to be considered that a good portion of it could have even vented back in through the ship from the hole it created on the way through (I don't think this is as likely but I'm not an expert).

InchHigh wrote:
Reasonable guesses can be made to localize the likely area to search. Is there a technology which would allow locating a bomb there? Has the Parks Service ever thought about looking?


Metal detectors and mud-piercing sonar would work well *IF* the harbor wasn't already full of debris from Arizona's explosion and nearly 100 years of Navy occupation.

Jeff Sharp wrote:
What might be those two geysers shaped objects then if not bomb geysers?


Counter question - how do you explain the missing geyser near the south quay if you are so sure that the two you believe are splashes leave that large of a geyser and trailing shower? The images are too distant and unclear to be sure of what's going on - the same reason I don't believe we have photographic proof of a midget sub firing on battleship row.

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 Post subject: Arizona Plans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Posts: 156
Tracy,
I have just finished going through all the 93 pages on this forum in anticipation for scratch building a 1/192 Arizona. This week I will be finishing my build of the Missouri as she appeared at the time of the surrender, so the Arizona was the next logical ship to construct. I have Stillwell's book, Squadron At Sea's Arizona and the Karego 3D series Arizona, which comes with a set of 1/350 plans. My main source of information is Floating Drydocks' set of plans. I have a couple of questions in regards to these references.
You have stated numerous times in this forum that the FDD plans have some inaccuracies. Is it possible to get a list of them so I can build as accurate a model as I can?
I don't know if you have had a chance to look through the Kagero book and if you have what are your impressions in regards to accuracy. I had one I used for the Missouri, but I know there were a few errors in it although it was a lot of help in figuring out those hidden areas that always seem to appear in model building. I would also be interested in your opinion of their 1/350 plans, if you have seen them.
I ask you these questions, as it appears after going through all these pages that you are the one to answer them, not that I wouldn't like to here from any other contributors. I know there are plenty of you out there that also have a lot of knowledge of the Arizona that will be of great benefit. I already have made a list of thread pages with information I believe will be of great assistance once I get into construction.
Tracy you have helped me in the past on other models I have worked on, mainly the Alaska and the Missouri, and know I can trust you for accurate information.
Thank you in advance for your input.

Larry McCauley


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
Counter question - how do you explain the missing geyser near the south quay if you are so sure that the two you believe are splashes leave that large of a geyser and trailing shower? The images are too distant and unclear to be sure of what's going on - the same reason I don't believe we have photographic proof of a midget sub firing on battleship row.


I can't explain it other than to speculate like everyone else is doing. Maybe the south quay bomb was a dud. Again, that's like asking how does John explain a bomb going in between Ariz's stern and Vestal's bow when no photographic evidence supports that claim at all.
The whole reason I'm bringing all this up is because John's published article deserves to be questioned and challenged. I'm sure he did tremendous amounts of research before publishing this piece but it also appears he did his fair share of guessing and assuming as well.


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:49 am 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
Tracy White wrote:
The whole reason I'm bringing all this up is because John's published article deserves to be questioned and challenged. I'm sure he did tremendous amounts of research before publishing this piece but it also appears he did his fair share of guessing and assuming as well.


I believe that is true of all work. Unfortunately with the attack on Pearl Harbor, a lot of the records went down with the ships of the Kido Butai lost at Midway. I don't accept John's work as gospel but I bet he's about 75-90% right. There's a lot of things we'll never be able to know for sure, but honestly that is true of most history, and I ultimately accept that.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Cool video of 'Zona!

https://www.gettyimages.com/videos/8930 ... st#license


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:29 am 
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Location: Mesa, Arizona
Very cool indeed! That takeoff looked a little sketchy... haha

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1:350 U.S.S. Chicago SSN-721

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:38 pm 
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Another cool one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhYBy8mZbE

and this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYxcV3P76W4

I'm such a geek when it comes to Arizona. I'm always trying to find little details that at least I wasn't aware of before.

Like this one. I never noticed before that the deck on top of the vegetable locker, which is right under the mainmast was not teaked like the rest of the boat deck. There appears to be a small rim all around the top of the vegetable locker separating it from the boat deck.
Image

Image

Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu May 31, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Location: Ellijay Georgia
Both were cool videos

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Nice screen grabs, Jeff. Like you, I am a "geek" for anything history but especially Arizona. I am always looking for some fine detail or "ah ha" moment too. With that in mind, one thing I have not personally seen accurately done with respect to Arizona models is the "break" in the deck and the aft 1.1" gun tubs and directors. Based on research and conversations with folks would know, I mocked-up how I believe the director mounts were. It still needs detailing and more research for the gun tub, but you get the general idea.

Thanks.


Attachments:
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IMG_0221 resized.JPG [ 24.76 KiB | Viewed 1733 times ]
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IMG_0218 resized.JPG [ 36.27 KiB | Viewed 1733 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:14 am 
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A couple of comments.

I believe the support for the 1.1" director platform should be a pole (thinner than what you have) as per what was installed on Pennsylvania in January of 1943. Item 5 in this picture shows what looks to me to be a 9-12" pipe. Note the vertical ladder and handrails that extend above on the outboard side.

Additionally, I believe Trumpeter got the pedestal for the 1.1" tub wrong and that it should be square. This photo of Maryland's 1.1" tub has a square base, and the raised tubs on Texas today are also square. I have no proof in plans, but who knows what the future may bring. :big_grin:

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:24 am 
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Hi Tracy, thanks for the feedback. I think you are right about the thinner pole rather than more substantial one I did. After I had already mocked this up, I recalled a conversation with someone who has been able to dive the wreck and he did say the pedestal is thinner. I also agree about the tub foundation. Looking at the picture of AZ at PSNY in late 1940, it is difficult to definitively say the base is round or square but I am of the mind it is square.

Jim

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:09 am 
Tangent alert: paravane rigging on fo'c'sle... I seem to recall seeing someone model the smaller chains on the fo'c'sle and I have been curious as to what they were for. I surmised it was for the paravanes but wasn't sure until today. I found some pics online of the chains routed down to the forefoot, through a "paravane skeg", but these pics appear to have been EARLY 20th century (WW1?). I have done some basic searched for the rigging but haven't found much of anything useful.

Questions:
How were the chains rigged on deck?
How were they rigged on the side/bottom of the hulls?

Thanks.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:58 am 
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It would seem I stand corrected regarding the gun tub and director details for the 1.1" guns. I was snooping elsewhere on this forum and see it has been done, with detail differences, a few years ago. I still welcome any details and/or feedback.

Thanks,
Jim

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Guest wrote:
Tangent alert: paravane rigging on fo'c'sle... I seem to recall seeing someone model the smaller chains on the fo'c'sle and I have been curious as to what they were for. I surmised it was for the paravanes but wasn't sure until today. I found some pics online of the chains routed down to the forefoot, through a "paravane skeg", but these pics appear to have been EARLY 20th century (WW1?). I have done some basic searched for the rigging but haven't found much of anything useful.

Questions:
How were the chains rigged on deck?
How were they rigged on the side/bottom of the hulls?

Thanks.

Jim


Jim,
Yes those were Paravane lines. When not in use, the paravanes were stowed on barbette #2.
Image

Here are a couple of pics of the lines on the deck.
Image
Image
Image
Notice the "sawhorse" on the port side raising up the lines off the deck for some reason in this shot.
Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu May 31, 2018 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:40 pm 
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10tweaker wrote:
It would seem I stand corrected regarding the gun tub and director details for the 1.1" guns. I was snooping elsewhere on this forum and see it has been done, with detail differences, a few years ago. I still welcome any details and/or feedback.

Thanks,
Jim


Jim, I gave it a go a couple of years ago.
Image

I too made my post thicker than what Tracy believes is the correct size. Amazingly, this detail of the ship continues to be overlooked by those that have mapped and sonar scanned the wreck.
Image
Image
Image
Image

This is the only image I have ever been able to find that possibly shows the director platform but it appears to be much thicker than what it seems to be today.
Image
Image
Image

I also agree with Tracy that the base of the gun tub was probably square. The only ship that didn't have a square base was Tennessee as seen here. Her tub was very unique. No ribs on the outside and also, the face of the tub was flat, not rounded like the rest of the tub.
Image
Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu May 31, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:28 am 
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the feedback and I love the way you modeled yours! I have those screen grabs and use them as reference as well. Seeing those prompted me to find some of those videos online and provided invaluable reference I had not previously seen. Other areas I think have not been given "full treatment", so to speak, are the already-mentioned gun tubs and directors and the "break" in the deck but also the 1.1" director platforms on the bridge. The model has those molded as solid disks, but a screen grab I have clearly shows it as a ring with a couple of angled cross pieces and a single, angled strut holding it up. I am also trying to determine of the forward 1.1" tubs had a metal bottom or wood, as illustrated on Pennsylvania in early 1942 shipyard pics. I am thinking it was wood except for the area immediately hanging over the edge of the casemate, which would be metal. The closest I have to that area on AZ is a grainy and obscured screen grab from the same video I mentioned for the fwd directors and the only thing clearly visible is some sort of box in the fwd gun tub. Nothing much to see of the decking there. Hopefully, upcoming research may reveal more!

Thanks for the pic of your model. I went back to review your thread but most of the pics are no longer there.

I revised my version of the aft tub and director as well...


Attachments:
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:02 pm 
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10tweaker wrote:
I am also trying to determine of the forward 1.1" tubs had a metal bottom or wood, as illustrated on Pennsylvania in early 1942 shipyard pics. I am thinking it was wood except for the area immediately hanging over the edge of the casemate, which would be metal.


Definitely teak decking except for the overhang.
Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu May 31, 2018 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:47 am 
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You're "Da Man", Jeff, thanks! I have that video, but my screen grab didn't come out that clear -- thanks! Any ideas as to what the box is? Also, do you know how the paravane rigging was done both on-deck and through the skeg on the fore foot? Sorry for the questions, but if I don't ask while it is fresh in my mind, I will go down a rabbit hole regarding other details and forget to come back to this! LOL

Thanks!
Jim

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:28 pm 
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Not sure what the box is. As far as the paravane lines go, two lines went down to the bottom of the bow and came back up on the other side. How it all worked? I have no idea but it's a cool detail that I had to add to my kit.
Image


Last edited by Jeff Sharp on Thu May 31, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:29 am 
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Very nice! Thanks.

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