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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:10 am 
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I was going back through the online version of the National archives and came across a photo that confirms there were only three 50 cal mg's in Arizonas fighting top. I don't know how I missed this before. I may have skipped it as most of the other Pearl Harbor photos of the Arizona under attack or still burning are of low resolution.

Franz


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File comment: This photo clearly shows only 3 50 cal's on the Maintop of the Arizona.
MainTopShowing3MG's.png
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Franz,
You are absolutely right. ‘Zona only had 3 MG’s in her birdbath. As a side note, West Virginia had no MG’s in her birdbath at the time of the attack.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Hey Guys,
Haven't asked a question for awhile.
Assuming the Arizona was painted sea blue on that fateful day, would her upper masts have been painted 5L? I ask this because the pictures of Don Preul's model sure looks like they are white. It maybe due to the lighting, but again, I just wanted to run it by you all.
Thanks

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Location: Palm Beach, Fla
Are you making a model of Preul's model?
Paint it any way you want, he did.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:21 am 
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No, I am not. If you read the background on why he painted his model in the sea blue configuration, you would see that it wasn't just on a whim. I am trying to build an as accurate model as possible using all the information that is in this forum and Jeff Sharp's log. I am using the sea blue configuration as a matter of choice, but I am not using that as a license to forgo accuracy.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Larry, I think 5L would be the correct color for the upper works under either the Dark Grey or Ocean Blue. I've not seen any dispute about that color on this site, just weather she was dark grey or ocean blue or a mix. I've attached two links that I've found useful about U.S. Navy ship camouflage:


http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/
http://shipcamouflage.com/
Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Thanks Franz.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Hi Larry,
Unfortunately to-date the blue theory remains just that. It is only a theory and is based on zero presented evidence she was ACTUALLY painted blue at any point prior to the attack. It was a massive leap of faith by the "Blue Crew" and that is why Don's model is blue. At some point a couple of members of that crew apparently found color film that according to them "clearly" showed the aft two turrets wearing sea blue. But for some reason that film has strangely been missing ever since. I don't know if Don actually saw this film or not or if he just took the word of the "researchers" that said they saw it. I suspect that he also drew his blue conclusion based on the few directives that were found showing that 5-D was discontinued by the US Navy and replaced with 5-S sometime in late summer '41. But none of these directives specifically said that Arizona painted into 5-S.
I can go on and on for paragraphs about all the arguments of both sides over the years but the fact of the matter is there still is no consensus. I can give you my opinion, but my opinion has changed probably a hundred times based on what I've seen over the dozen or so years. As I write this, I currently believe that if sea blue was being applied to her then it was not complete yet. It is my belief that if it was complete then the fighting tops would have also been painted 5-S. Clearly they were not.
I do believe that something strange was happening to those turrets. Are those turrets 5-S or badly faded 5-D? Clearly they are a lighter shade than the main mast and boat cranes.
Image

Image

Of ALL the photographs I've analyzed over the years, this one showing USS Tern and USS Navajo next to Arizona is the strongest argument I've been able to find against 5-S on her mainmast and boat cranes. Clearly Tern is wearing 5-D and Navajo is in overall 5-S and Arizona's color tones match Tern's not Navajo's.
Image

Navajo's presence is very compelling. She can be found in a few photos next to Arizona. Here she is sailing past battleship row. In this pic she seems to be even lighter than Arizona's turrets.
Image

Have I mentioned that I hate photobucket!

Look also at this pic showing USS St. Louis wearing 5-S in the background. Does that look like the same color as Arizona's mainmast?
Image

And then look at this pic of her turrets against USS Tern ( or one of her sisters) wearing 5-D. Not a big tone difference there.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:30 am 
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Jeff, these are great photos. Especially with ships with known paint on them. In the past I took some post Pearl Harbor photos and colorized them on a site I found on the web. Not knowing how the site's algorithm works to take a b&W photo I mostly did it just to see how they would come out. With your photos showing other ships with know paint schemes I took the liberty of colorizing these photos. They follow below. Again I'm not implying the accuracy of the conversion, but thought it would be usefull to see how the ships compared after colorization. Trying to get the most information out of these photos sometimes takes thinking out of the box. Great work with comparing ships with known paint against the Arizona in the same photos. That reduces the variables.

I agree that the turrets do look different from the mainmast. Could the mainmast have experienced some discolorization or darkening from the blast and flames having been closer than the turrets? Just a thought.

This is the link to the site I used to colorize the photos:

https://demos.algorithmia.com/colorize-photos/

I had always planned on going with the the 5-L and 5-D combination with the red turret tops.

Note - I believe I put them in the same order Jeff has them even though my naming convention doesn't match that order.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:44 am 
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Rounded surfaces reflect light differently than flat surfaces and almost always photograph lighter. Unfortunately, pictures only show what we think we see. I think the blue was a hoax or a mistake.
There is no evidence, only opinions. I think that the "only" blue Arizona at PH was Don's model.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:54 am 
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JCRAY wrote:
Rounded surfaces reflect light differently than flat surfaces and almost always photograph lighter. Unfortunately, pictures only show what we think we see. I think the blue was a hoax or a mistake.
There is no evidence, only opinions. I think that the "only" blue Arizona at PH was Don's model.

I completely agree with you about the light on turrets. Even prewar ships in standard navy gray photographed sometimes with lighter turrets.
I believe the Blue thing was a careless rush to judgement maybe because Don had a deadline to meet with the model. The fact that he also published his work is even more careless.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:59 am 
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All,
It was not my intent to continue the controversy of the Arizona's color scheme at the time of the attack. I fully believe that she wasn't all blue, but a mixture of colors. But what was blue and what was gray we'll probably never know. So rather than try a two tone scheme, I chose to model her in the blue scheme from an aesthetic point of view. Again, this is just my choice, not my belief. It is the only variance from reality that I will introduce into my model.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 pm 
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First off, after looking at literally 1,000's of ship photos at NARA and elsewhere (NOT copies posted on-line), and knowing the variations possible in "APPEARANCE" of paints used during WWII in B&W prints due to different film types used, different settings and filters used on the camera, different exposures when making prints from those negatives, etc, interpretations of what colors are applied isn't possible with certainty. Colorization is an "ART" not science. Hence, quite literally the person entering the parameters in a model can come up with whatever result is desired.

I'm NOT posting these images as proof one way or another on how USS ARIZONA was painted on 7 December 1941, but want to show why even in B&W images there are questions about the paint applied to at least part of USS ARIZONA. Even the survivors of her sinking, can't agree on what "color" USS ARIZONA was painted on 7 December 1941. I can't remember his name, but one sailor I felt had a more creditable account, because as one of his last assigned tasks onboard his ship was to paint his section of the ship in the next day or so. He said that the hull and other parts of the ship had already been repainted. The upper superstructure had not. Given the textual records I have seen, I can believe that the order (a possible verbal order during a command level meeting a few days before the attack with a written order to follow, which was never issued because of the attack) was made the week before the attack when the Battle Fleet expected to be sailing to the Philippines as the war started there. The war alert sent out on 27 November 1941 set in motion a lot of activities seen in Deck Logs, etc. It is even possible from textual records that 5-N was ordered to be applied since the Battle Force command didn't like 5-S and preferred 5-N. I found a document dated 21 November 1941, recently stating that one of the destroyers that had been painted in 5-S in September 1941, was to be repainted to 5-N and another document stating that it had been done (in November or early December 1941) for evaluation at the direction of the Battle Force Command. That destroyer was operating from PEARL HARBOR not on the west coast, so was likely painted there. In contrast to going to 5-D, the "new" paints being used in the most recent camo schemes, used the same two components (a white base and blue tinting) mixed together in different ratios. Once Pearl Harbor had the two part supplies of paint, they could have easily mixed 5-N instead of 5-S.

Frankly, my interest in 1941 camo has more to do with the experiments done on destroyers. I have found a few images, in odd places at that, but not the evaluation photos taken for ALL the destroyers (or for that matter the other ships painted in evaluation schemes).

Last year I had finished going through all 2866 boxes in 80-G at NARA. Since then I have been returning to the first 200-800 boxes I had gone through in 2007-13, looking to see what I passed over when I didn't have the same interests I do now. One of the boxes I went through had photos taken during and post the Pearl Harbor attack. There were several images of USS ARIZONA that I had remembered seeing before, but didn't scan the first time through this box, and had views that seemed to show lighter shades to her paint than many of the images found on the internet. I wish I knew which type of film and type of print paper was used for these photos.

The first image was likely taken on 7 December 1941 while they were still fighting her fires. Note the aft turrets in the somewhat blurry image and the scorched area on the aft end of #3 turret and the vent coming out of the deck.

Image

The second image taken at a different aspect angle, was taken after USS ARIZONA's fires were mostly put out, maybe on 8 December, but the ships alongside are applying water to the bridge area. The sun in this view puts most of the aft end of the ship in the shade.

Image

The third and fourth images are taken taken on the same day on likely 8 or 9 December (mounting card captions varied). Actually, quite likely, the last three images could have been taken in sequence by the same photographer. But, the same vessels seen in image 2 are still applying water to the bridge area. Again, note in the fourth images her aft turrets and the same scorched area on the aft end of turret #3 can be seen.

Image

Image

As you can see, the various shades of "gray or blue-gray" paint varies quite a bit. In looking at these images, note the 5-L painted tops of the aft tripod (mainmast). The apparent shade of 5-L is different in each view. In the last image, the aft turrets look lighter, but also quite glossy. Further, the turrets on the NEVADA and PENNSYLVANIA classes are quite complex shapes with curves and flat faces, reflecting sunlight at different intensities. But, also the tripod legs are round as well. Some of the images of USS ARIZONA post-attack, even copies of the same as the ones I'm posting here, if made from copy negatives of these or other prints can or will appear darker due to higher contrast.

Compare to this image of USS ARIZONA in drydock at PHNY one month earlier, on 8 November 1941. Her 5-D paint is noticeable darker. I'm pretty certain USS ARIZONA wasn't repainted with a different paint scheme while in drydock to repair collision damage.

Image

Here is a view of USS OKLAHOMA and USS MARYLAND. Just as perspective, USS MARYLAND's aft turrets have angular structure to them and reflect paints differently than is seen on other parts of the ship. Note that the boat alongside USS OKLAHOMA is as dark (likely 5-D) of shade as USS ARIZONA on 8 November 1941.

Is any of this proof, no. Will we ever know, maybe not. After USS ARIZONA was sunk, her BuShips files were purged, since she wasn't going to be salvaged for service. Her December Deck Logs were destroyed. Records on paint supplies are scant. What paint she was to be painted, just weren't important to anyone at that point. A memo issues just days after the attack (on 16 December 1941 and had clearly been in coordination and review before that date) clearly stated that ALL Pacific Fleet ships were to be painted with 5-N ASAP within operational demands.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:02 am 
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Rick, Thank you for posting those beautiful photos!


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:09 pm 
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I would also like to thank you for the photo's. I especially like the one with the Arizona in Dry dock. It clearly shows the rafts on the side of Turret 2 and on the bridge. It also shows the 5" AA guns with the canvas covers over them. Also if you look really close you can just make out the 3 Mg's on the top of the main top.

With the color issue still ongoing I am now thinking of modeling her while she was in Dry dock. I had planned to do a wood block base like in Dry doc as my stand anyway and we know what color she was at that time.

Again great detail.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Agreed. The dry dock photo is one of my all time favorites. Ironically this is the very photo the “blue crew” presented as evidence of her wearing Sea blue, claiming that “she is clearly freshly painted here.”
Pretty comical argument. The little bit of the hull you can see in the photo looks anything but freshly painted.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:49 pm 
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In the 8 November 1941 image, USS ARIZONA's superstructure appears to have been freshly painted. Since she is in drydock getting hull repairs, they are likely cleaned the whole hull and applied new paint.

Actually I have wondered if the need to repair USS ARIZONA and USS OKLAHOMA hulls after their collision, and then doing a complete painting job, didn't deplete the remaining supply of 5-D paint at PHNY. That would have put pressure on the powers-to-be to make up their minds about what paint they wanted the battleships to use. They were ordering the destroyers to turn in excess 5-D paint in November and to await application of 5-S (or 5-N). Many of the cruisers at Pearl Harbor already were or were in the process of being painted with 5-S.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:16 am 
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David, thanks for the correction. I was using "turret" as short-hand especially since I forgot the base was called a barbette!

Franz :-)


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:36 am 
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On page 155 of Stillwell's book, it shows a sailor using a 12" signal lamp on the flag/signal platform. Behind him is another sailor standing by what appears to be a ship's binocular. It is partially blocked by the other sailor by the lamp. I have tried looking up on the internet for more information on the binocular arrangement. Would anyone have additional information such as diagrams or pictures of this equipment that would enable me to model it?
Thanks.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:06 am 
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I think I found what I was looking for. It appears to be a telescope and not binoculars. Now the question is, was it there in 1941. From the pictures I found, it appears to be old technology for the that time.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/038/013840p.jpg


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