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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:14 pm 
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The water circulation systems was closed-loop, not connected to a ship's water water supply pumping system.

The two attached images are from the BIW DD445 class Engineering Drawings microfilm copy of the original water circulation system drawing planned for the FLETCHER class. The circulation system for the four 50-cal MGS that were "planned" to be located forward of the bridge at the 01 deck level behind 52 mount has been cross-hatched as no longer part of the design. The design of circulation system for the quad 1.1-in mount installed on DD-449, 450, and 451 remains on this drawing. There was one system and tank for the group of four 50-cal MGs. I don't know how the circulation system was installed in the "birdbath" 50-cal MGs position, but suspect it would be similar. These drawings are hard to read and see in places, but there was a 45-Gal tank for the water. The pump was a "Government Furnished" item and wouldn't appear on these drawings.

There were several different mounts for 50-cal MGs and the water hoses sometimes entered the mount at the top or went to the floor. At the bottom is an image of 50-cal MGs installed onboard USS ENTERPRISE. I assume that the water tank was placed below decks or otherwise out of the gun crews feet.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Guys,
I don't know what I was smoking when I commented about the picture in Leeward's book. I looked at it again and it was a generic picture of the 50 cal gun that did show the hoses going into the mount base, but it was not tagged as the Arizona as I said. The picture I was talking about, that was taken on board BB39, was in Stilwell's book on page 212. The hoses are not connected. I was looking at all different sources at the time and I guess I got mixed up. Not hard to do at my age.
As far using the Leeward book as a reference, there really isn't that much in it of value. A better source is Squadron/Signal book The USS Arizona by David Doyle, a Squadron At Sea book. Lots of pictures. By the way, both of you are correct in regards to the author. Freidman and Sumrall were both listed as authors along with, Arthur Baker and Arnold Lott.
At this point, I'm not sure from the discussion, if the hoses went to the base or to a portable tank like the one I originally mentioned when I posed the question. I guess we'll find out, hopefully.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Larry, thanks for you opinion on the book. I'll skip it then. I already have the Squadron/Signal book The USS Arizona by David Doyle and the Stillwell book and will be getting the 3-D book for Christmas.

BB62Vet the statement of mine that you quoted was a clarification of what I was asking (as in question) about Ricks post. I was not making a statement of fact. I also did not mean to imply that the hoses went into a ship-wide water system, just that it went to some reservoir located somewhere in the ship.

Per Rick's follow up post it sounds like this could be the case. Why have 4 portable chest/pumps in what would have been permanent mountings (at least till the next in port upgrades). At this point I'm still on the fence as to hoses going into the chest/pumps or hoses going into the deck at the base of the mounts.


PS still being a relative newbie on this site can someone tell me how to do those quotes from another post?

Thanks

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:06 pm 
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see the word "quote" icon in the bottom right corner of each person's post? click on it & that member's post is copied into your reply thread that just appeared when you clicked on the "quote" icon.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:17 am 
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Franz,

From the FLETCHER class drawings, it was stated that for FOUR 50-cal MGs, a 45-Gal tank was required. That tells me that each MG required 10-12 Gallons of water (I wondered if they used a coolant additive as well?) for cooling. I doubt that they ever used "portable" water tanks and the pump would need to be attached to something and have electrical power for it to operate. Almost every gun on almost every USN ship in WWII, required some sort of interfaces to the ship. Even 20-mm guns needed electrical power for the Mk 14 gunsight. Installing 50-cal MGs wasn't a simple install.

There were "mobile" 50-cal MG mounts, that probably had everything mounted on the cart needed to operate the gun. It has been awhile since I read about them in textual records, but I think that they had prepared positions for installing these. They were intended for temporary locations where removing them would be desirable for some onboard operations. If you look in this image of USS PENNSYLVANIA ... http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013801e.jpg ... on her fore deck are two of these guns. Why they still had 50-cal MGs onboard her in 1945, I don't know.

Also, in the design work for where and how to add 20-mm guns (along with the 40-mm guns) on these old battleships, they NEVER planned to install 20-mm guns in the birdbaths. The top weight concerns of the added weight for the 20-mm guns and ammo, was a prohibitive issue. Actually it was decided early on that the main mast tripods would have to go. Plus getting ammo atop those tripods from a clipping room would have been a chore.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:33 am 
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David, thanks. I didn't see that till you pointed it out.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:40 am 
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Rick thanks for the clarification. I did see a youtube video while researching this that showed someone at a gun range firing 200 rounds into a junk car with the portable version of this gun. They showed still photos in the youtube at the end showing the full mount, hoses and the Chest/pump. I don't remember seeing anything on how it was powered though. I'll have to go back and look at that.

I haven't committed fully but I'm leaning in your direction on how the mounts looked in the birdbath.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:04 pm 
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The youtube showing the 50cal mg firing 200 rounds was using a hand crank pump. This was an army setup (not Navy) but it was still interesting to watch. The link follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egsaVu2wgXM


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:08 pm 
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I found the following images and thought they might be of interest for the discussion on the water cooled 50cal mg mounts on the Arizona.
I'm surprised the HASBRO GI Joe "Pearl Harbor Collection Series" looks so real.

Franz


Attachments:
File comment: Shows the hoses going toward the bottom of the mount
50calAAgun.jpg
50calAAgun.jpg [ 5.25 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]
File comment: Another view of the water cooled 50 cal mg
50CalWaterCooledMg.jpg
50CalWaterCooledMg.jpg [ 3.97 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]
File comment: The toy version
GIJoePearlHarborEdition.jpg
GIJoePearlHarborEdition.jpg [ 9.43 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Franz,
That's a cool MG by Hasbro. Here's another little detail for you to consider adding. Notice the "sight line" for lack of better term that extends out about 3 feet beyond the end of the barrel.
Image

Came across this cool shot of her Bow. This view really shows how pointed the tip of the bow was. Unfortunately another thing wrong with the Trumpeter kit.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:41 pm 
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Unfortunately, the toy or whoever assembled it, put the hoses in the wrong place. Look at the image I posted of the 50-cal on USS ENTERPRISE. The hoses should enter the stationary pedestal at the top where the mount swivels with the gun. The way they have it, the hoses would get wrapped around the pedestal as the gun was trained in a circle and the mount would require being rotated the other direction to unwind. Unless the hoses got pulled lose.

Here is another image showing the hoses better. This 50-cal MG is a different Mark that the ones seen in the USS ENTERPRISE photo.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:44 am 
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Rick, I think there were variations on that gun. For example the first two images I posted (not the toy) show at least one of the hoses going down to the base. Also the cooling jacket around the barrel goes the full length of the barrel. The last photo you posted shows what almost looks like a silencer at the end of the water jacket (probably a muzzle break of some type).

I've just been reading a book concerning the mobilization of the U.S. for WW II called A Call To Arms (Mobilizing America For World War II) by Maury Klein. One of the issues discussed in the book was how hard it was to ramp up production and still keep up with the constant changes requested by the military to equipment. The Army had more than one variant of this gun and I'm betting the Navy did too.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:47 am 
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Jeff, love the picture of the bow. A question though the site line for which gun? I see a lot going on in the picture of the birds nest, but can't make out a lot of it.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
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Location: Downey, California
Regarding those "sight lines"... I wonder if that's what gave rise to the Profile Morskie book (or was it an AJ Press book? Don't have it with me at the moment) claiming Arizona was equipped with 20mm Oerlikons at the time of her sinking?
Which in turn made me wonder: Perhaps those sticks were added to get the gunners used to the longer barrels of the impending upgrade?

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:52 am 
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Jeff are you referring to what look like hazy lines extending from the end of the barrels?

Sean thinks they are sticks.

I would almost say it looks like smoke exiting the barrels as they are being fired. Do you know when this photo was taken? It doesn't necessarily have to be during the Pearl Harbor attack as I know they practiced firing the 50 cal mgs along with all the other guns at various times.


Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:50 am 
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Yeah that is what I’m referring to. Sorry the photo is so blurry but they are definitely sticks. I’ll try to find a clearer pic.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:04 pm 
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The "sticks" were an attempt to have some sort of sights for gunners tracking aircraft targets. If you note on the 50-cal MGs in the USS ENTERPRISE photo, there are no gunsights other than a "rifle-like" sights on the gun, only good if you were shooting at surface targets. The sticks would allow the gunnery to at least gauge a lead angle on his shooting. It didn't help much in ranging outside of loosely sighting on the stick and front gunsight for pre-determined ranges. Tracers were the main way for a gunner to track how well he was shooting.

As for ... Regarding those "sight lines"... I wonder if that's what gave rise to the Profile Morskie book (or was it an AJ Press book? Don't have it with me at the moment) claiming Arizona was equipped with 20mm Oerlikons at the time of her sinking? ...

The Eastern European books seem to have many errors (as did OLDER pre-David Doyle Squadron Books) on USN warships. There were NO 20-mm guns installed at Pearl Harbor. The first ship at Pearl Harbor "scheduled" to get the guns was USS UTAH in her role of a Gunnery Training Ship to train gunners. The first 20-mm guns were installed on USN ships in late December 1941 and early January 1942. There were NO PLANS to install 20-mm guns in the "birdbaths" at the top of the mainmast tripod.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Location: Downey, California
It was that claim of 20mm mounts on Arizona that got me to notice the sticks in the first place - otherwise, they're awfully easy to miss/ignore, since you wouldn't expect them.
Thinking of the bulky shape of the cooling sleeve and lack of clearly visible muzzle protrusion when you're operating the thing... and lack of a sight (wonder why? For that matter, why sling them so low that the gunner is literally shooting from the hip?)... I can see the usefulness of adding a "pointer"

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:48 pm 
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A couple more looks at the "sticks".
Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:11 pm 
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Jeff, those are great photo's and I'm going to add them to my file! :smallsmile:

Now If I can figure out how to add that detail (we're talking really really small with really really fat fingers) I'm imagining all 50 cal mg's on Arizona had them.

Franz


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